[b-hebrew] Theophoric Name: Y:HOWYFQIYM

Karl Randolph kwrandolph at email.com
Sat Jan 7 16:49:25 EST 2006


Harold:

Look at your responses. You seem to say, if someone is 
authoritative, has a PhD, then he must be accurate. That is 
not always true.

While I don't have advanced degrees, I grew up in academia, 
and I have seen how the game works. In short, if you are a 
grad student, you kiss ass to get your degree. That can and 
sometimes includes outright fraud. Once you get your phud, 
you still kiss ass to get tenure. Even once you have tenure, 
there are ways to get rid of profs who rock the boat with 
radical new research. One of those is by refusing him a 
pulpit in "peer reviewed journals", in short, censorship.

Since I don't have a degree, nor tenure to secure and protect, 
I am free to say my mind.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harold Holmyard" <hholmyard at ont.com>
> 
> Karl Randolph wrote:
> 
> > Your sources are not as aurhoritive as you may want. See below.
> >
> 
> HH: This is G. R. Driver, a well-known scholar, ... 
> 
> 
> HH: The writer has a doctorate. He cites articles by recognized
> scholars, one by Anson Rainey and another by Barton Payne. Anson Rainey
> is Jewish and Barton Payne was Protestant.:
> 
>     ...
> 
> HH: You would have to show me that what you're talking about. This
> Catholic encyclopedia cites evidence, accepts it, and shows that
> scholars accept it, too, in his further remarks about the meaning of
> Yahweh after the following quote. This quote gives and accepts evidence
> (not because of the consensus but because of the evidence):
> 
> ...
> 
> HH: But this is from an authoritative, if old, Protestant source.
> 
> ...
> 
> HH: This is the Jewish encyclopedia. These are authoritative sources
> from widely differing backgrounds showing broad agreement. The original
> pronunciation has been lost, so I suppose various things are possible.
> 
> > Was the Hebrew pronunciation similar to the Samaritan? 
> > Contradicted by the early Greek transcriptions. The Samaritan 
> > pronunciation could have been a way to say the name without 
> > really saying it.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> HH: The last sentence seems empty speculation. 

Not entirely. Examples in English include "gosh", "golly", 
"jee" and other such words which are a corruption of "God", 
"Jesus" and other "sacred" words, corruptions made so that 
the speakers could say the words without saying the words. 
(My grandfather called them "petty swearing" and enjoined 
his children from using them: his influence was such that 
my children don't use them.) I have heard of similar use of 
words in other societies, to avoid saying "sacred" words by 
changing them slightly. While I can't prove that that is what 
happened for the Samaritan pronunciation, at the same time 
we can't say definitively that it didn't happen.

>     The early Greek
> transcriptions do not absolutely contradict the the Samaritan
> pronunciation. Epiphanius has the same thing as the Samaritan. Some of
> the other ones with "Jao" may reflect a sound similar to Yahweh.

Maybe so, maybe not. The lack of the "h" sound in 
Greek is a major sticking point here, for the main 
difference between what I think may have happened 
and the Greek transcriptions is the lack of the h 
sound in Greek.
> 
> James of Edessa has something very close (Jehjeh), though he is later
> (A.D. 633-705). Here is a word about James of Edessa:
> 
> He was not only familiar with Greek and with older Syriac writers, but
> he also had some knowledge of Hebrew, and willingly availed himself of
> the aid of Jewish scholars, whose views he often records. His writings,
> which are not all extant, were very varied and numerous. Among them may
> be noticed first, his important revision of the Old Testament.
> 
> > Ancient Greek transliterations, while good enough to show that 
> > they contradict the Samaritan pronunciation, the lack of the H 
> > sound make them an uncertain source. In other words, they don't 
> > contradict my conjectured pronunciation of "Yahohe", nor 
> > "Yahwey", nor "Yahoweh". Or more accurately, evidence for all 
> > three of these pronunciations could be adduced from one or more 
> > of these trascriptions.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> HH: The "h" sound does not even have to be pronounced, just as it isn't
> in Yahweh.
> 
> >> From the theophoric use in names, I come to the conclusion that
> > YHWH was originally pronounced Yahohe or something similar. But 
> > this is conjecture, no less so than the conjectured 
> > pronunciations listed above, and I expect other people to 
> > disagree.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> HH: I don't mind what your view is, or Rolf's. If we want more details,
> we may have to go to scholarly articles in libraries, not necessarily at
> easy access on the Internet.
> 
> Yours,
> Harold Holmyard

Harold, before getting your panties in a bunch trying 
to prove me wrong, all I have been saying is that the 
evidence for any one pronunciation is based on 
guesswork. Educated guesswork, but guesswork 
nonetheless. Sure, there's an academic preference for 
a particular one, but that does not mean that it is right. 
But without access to native speakers, there is no way 
to resolve our differences. Therefore, this is a question 
where we need to agree to disagree, and get on with 
questions where there is a possibility of resolution.

Karl W. Randolph.


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