[b-hebrew] The mystery of vav-consecutive
smille10 at sbcglobal.net
Thu Jun 2 21:56:10 EDT 2005
I copied the unicode from crosswire.com. My system is windows ME, only 2 years newer than yours, but less reliable. Did you try Peter Kirk's post today about downloading the unicode fonts. Maybe on 98 you have to download the fonts. I did not have to download anything, but I do keep current with the windows updates.
----- Original Message -----
From: Uri Hurwitz
To: Steve Miller
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The mystery of vav-consecutive
What kind of font do you use for the Hebrew? In my museum piece computer, windows 98, it appears as gibberish. Yet I get modern Israeli press etc perfectly clearly.
Long Island, NY
Steve Miller <smille10 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sunday 22 May 2005 16:15, Steve Miller wrote:
> > Can anyone give me 5 examples from the Pentateuch where the
> > is clearly NOT a tense reversal?
From: "Dave Washburn" Sunday, May 22, 2005 7:55 PM
> Reversal of what? You're assuming an awful lot: that we know the tense of
> other forms, that the intention of the waw-forms was to "reverse" one of
> other forms, that the tenses resulting from a particular structure are
> deliberate and not incidental to some other factor in the verb form -
> briefly, taking this approach ends up in massive circular reasoning and
I mean reversal from imperfect to perfect and vice versa. I don't see how I
am assuming all these things. As a boy in Hebrew school, I learned that the
vav-consecutive reversed tense, but I have no vested interest either way. I
just want to find out the truth from the usage in the Bible. And I won't be
convinced unless I see it in the Bible.
If I look at the Bible starting from Gen 1:1 and read far enough to cover 10
vav-consecutives, that will take me to verse 7 and includes 11
vav-consecutive-imperfects . In these verses, 11 out of 11 vav-consecutives
reverse the imperfect to perfect,
while none of the non-vav-consecutives reverse.
However, in Gen 1:6, the only thing that makes ×•Ö´×™×”Ö´×™ not vav-consecutive is
So that is why I ask, can anyone give me 5 counter examples from the
Pentateuch, where the vav-consecutive does not reverse the imperfect to
Below I have copied Gen. 1:1-7 with Darby translation.
* indicates a vav-consecutive imperfect verb. 11 out of 11 are reversed to
translate as past
** is a non-vav-consecutive imperfect verb. 3 out of 3 translated as
present or future
*** is a non-vav consecutive perfect verb. 3 out of 3 translated as past
(Hebrew is copied from www.crosswire.org. Please let me know if this doesn't
go thru to anyone.)
Gen 1:1 ×‘Ö¼Ö°×¨Öµ××©×Ö´×™×ª ×‘Ö¼Ö¸×¨Ö¸× ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×Öµ×ª ×”Ö·×©×Ö¼Ö¸×žÖ·×™Ö´× ×•Ö°×Öµ×ª ×”Ö¸×Ö¸Ö½×¨Ö¶×¥×ƒ
In the beginning God ***created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 ×•Ö°×”Ö¸×Ö¸×¨Ö¶×¥ ×”Ö¸×™Ö°×ªÖ¸×” ×ªÖ¹×”×•Ö¼ ×•Ö¸×‘Ö¹×”×•Ö¼ ×•Ö°×—Ö¹×©×Ö¶×šÖ° ×¢Ö·×œÖ¾×¤Ö¼Ö°× Öµ×™ ×ªÖ°×”Ö¹×•× ×•Ö°×¨×•Ö¼×—Ö·
×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×žÖ°×¨Ö·×—Ö¶×¤Ö¶×ª ×¢Ö·×œÖ¾×¤Ö¼Ö°× Öµ×™ ×”Ö·×žÖ¼Ö¸Ö½×™Ö´××ƒ
And the earth ***was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the
deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 ×•Ö·×™Ö¼Ö¹××žÖ¶×¨ ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×™Ö°×”Ö´×™ ×Ö¹×•×¨ ×•Ö·Ö½×™Ö°×”Ö´×™Ö¾×Ö¹Ö½×•×¨×ƒ
And God *said, Let there **be light. And there *was light.
Gen 1:4 ×•Ö·×™Ö¼Ö·×¨Ö°× ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×Ö¶×ªÖ¾×”Ö¸×Ö¹×•×¨ ×›Ö¼Ö´×™Ö¾×˜Ö¹×•×‘ ×•Ö·×™Ö¼Ö·×‘Ö°×“Ö¼Öµ×œ ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×‘Ö¼Öµ×™×Ÿ
×”Ö¸×Ö¹×•×¨ ×•Ö¼×‘Öµ×™×Ÿ ×”Ö·×—Ö¹Ö½×©×Ö¶×šÖ°×ƒ
And God *saw the light that it was good; and God *divided between the light
and the darkness.
Gen 1:5 ×•Ö·×™Ö¼Ö´×§Ö°×¨Ö¸× ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×€ ×œÖ¸×Ö¹×•×¨ ×™Ö¹×•× ×•Ö°×œÖ·×—Ö¹×©×Ö¶×šÖ° ×§Ö¸×¨Ö¸× ×œÖ¸×™Ö°×œÖ¸×”
×•Ö·Ö½×™Ö°×”Ö´×™Ö¾×¢Ö¶×¨Ö¶×‘ ×•Ö·Ö½×™Ö°×”Ö´×™Ö¾×‘Ö¹×§Ö¶×¨ ×™Ö¹×•× ×Ö¶×—Ö¸Ö½×“×ƒ
And God *called the light Day, and the darkness he ***called Night. And
there *was evening, and there *was morning--the first day.
Gen 1:6 ×•Ö·×™Ö¼Ö¹××žÖ¶×¨ ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×™Ö°×”Ö´×™ ×¨Ö¸×§Ö´×™×¢Ö· ×‘Ö¼Ö°×ªÖ¹×•×šÖ° ×”Ö·×žÖ¼Ö¸×™Ö´× ×•Ö´×™×”Ö´×™ ×žÖ·×‘Ö°×“Ö¼Ö´×™×œ
×‘Ö¼Öµ×™×Ÿ ×žÖ·×™Ö´× ×œÖ¸×žÖ¸Ö½×™Ö´××ƒ
And God *said, Let there **be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and
let it **be a division between waters and waters.
Gen 1:7 ×•Ö·×™Ö¼Ö·×¢Ö·×©×‚ ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×Ö¶×ªÖ¾×”Ö¸×¨Ö¸×§Ö´×™×¢Ö· ×•Ö·×™Ö¼Ö·×‘Ö°×“Ö¼Öµ×œ ×‘Ö¼Öµ×™×Ÿ ×”Ö·×žÖ¼Ö·×™Ö´× ×Ö²×©×Ö¶×¨
×žÖ´×ªÖ¼Ö·×—Ö·×ª ×œÖ¸×¨Ö¸×§Ö´×™×¢Ö· ×•Ö¼×‘Öµ×™×Ÿ ×”Ö·×žÖ¼Ö·×™Ö´× ×Ö²×©×Ö¶×¨ ×žÖµ×¢Ö·×œ ×œÖ¸×¨Ö¸×§Ö´×™×¢Ö· ×•Ö·Ö½×™Ö°×”Ö´×™Ö¾×›ÖµÖ½×Ÿ×ƒ
And God *made the expanse, and *divided between the waters that are under
the expanse and the waters that are above the expanse; and it *was so.
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