[b-hebrew] Tenses and aspects; was: footnotes

Read, James C K0434995 at kingston.ac.uk
Mon Aug 8 11:22:06 EDT 2005


Yep!
Rolf's right here.
The argument becomes very circular when we have such a bendy definition of 
clause initial.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Rolf Furuli
Sent: Mon 8/8/2005 3:51 PM
To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Tenses and aspects; was: footnotes
 
Dear Brian,

I have no problem in seeing that BMQM constitutes the setting of Hosea 
1:9(10), including  c) "it will be said (YIQTOL) to them". Nontheless, 
according to the method I use for grammatical analysis BMQM is not a part of 
c), because it does not graphically occur in that clause.

You are of course free to use the method for analysis that you choose, but 
by including in the clause elements that graphically are outside the clause, 
the points of reference for what a sentence initial verb is becomes blurred. 
And I am afraid that this may open the way for circularity. For example, if 
the theory is that sentence initial YIQTOLs always are volitional in some 
sense, a YIQTOL that graphically occurs after a strong accent and which 
seems to have an indicative force, can be discarded as a counter-example, 
because elements from the context can be said to be implied in first 
position.

I will use Deuteronomy 32:10 as an example. On the basis of the definition 
of a clause that I have given I find four clauses in this verse, all with 
sentence initial YIQTOLs. The setting here is the wilderness, and if we are 
free to introduce the setting (the wilderness) into the first position in 
each clause, there are no sentence initial YIQTOLs, even though strong 
accents occur before three of the YIQTOLs. I am afraid that by such a loose 
method we will find sentence initial YIQTOLs only in clauses where they are 
expected to be, according to the theory.

a) In the winderness he found him (sent. YIQTOL), in the empty and howling 
desert.

b) He encircled him (sent. YIQTOL);

d) he cared for him (sent. YIQTOL);

d) he garded him (sent. YIQTOL) as the pupil of his eye,

Best regards

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine at twcny.rr.com>
To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Tenses and aspects; was: footnotes


> Hi Rolf,
>
> Nope.  bimqom "in a place" belongs with your clause c.
>
> Shalom,
> Bryan
>
> Rolf Furuli wrote:
>> Dear Bryan,
>>
>> Now I realize that we use the concept clause-initial (I have used
>> sentence-initial with the same meaning) very differently. For me a
>> clause-initial verb is one that begins a clause with no element 
>> preceding. I
>> use the term "clause" in the normal sense: "a syntagm that contains 
>> subject
>> and verbal ( implicit or explicit verbal)". Basically I find that this
>> definition accords with Masoretic pointing. Above )TM, the word before 
>> the
>> YIQTOL we are discussing, we find a zaqef qaton, which is a strong 
>> accent.
>> This marks the end of the previous clause, as I see it.
>>
>> In 3) I find four clauses:
>>
>> a) "In the place where it was said (YIQTOL) to them"  verbal clause
>> b) "`You are not my  people,`"  nominal clause
>> c) "it will be said (YIQTOL) to them" verbal clause
>> d) "`The sons of the living God`"  nominal clause with implicit "you are"
>>
>
> -- 
> B. M. Rocine
> Living Word Chruch
> 6101 Court St. Rd.
> Syracuse, NY 13026
> (W): 315.437.6744
> _______________________________________________

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