[b-hebrew] Is.45:7 God created evil?

Evgeny Ivanov evi7538 at yahoo.com
Fri Aug 5 12:22:51 EDT 2005

Just to offer for consideration another possible translation/interpretation of 2Sam24:1
The anger of God (towards people of Israel) moved IN THEM (BaHeM) David to say ... (Actually, this is exactly how this verse is translated in Russian (Sinodal) Old Testament translation)
So the anger of God caused (moved) people of Israel to ask (tempt) David to command to count. Theological explanation - anger of God is withdrawal of His grace, so man become subject to temptations. The anger of God (withdrawal of grace) caused such a psychological state in both Israel and David that they were moved by temptation to count.

Dave Washburn <dwashbur at nyx.net> wrote:
Just a couple of general comments:

On Friday 05 August 2005 09:06, George F Somsel wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:42:40 +0100 "Read, James C"
> writes:
> > I do not want to get invovled in a futile debate about the
> > authorship of Job but even
> > critics agree that it was composed long before Kings and Chronicles
> > and so for the
> > purposed of our discussion the book of Job provides a good context
> > in understanding
> > what could seem to be a contradiction.
> > The book of Job clearly identifies trials and temptation as
> > originating with a fallen
> > angel named Satan (adversary).
> _______________________________________________
> Your characterization of the date of composition of Job is not correct.
> The proposed dates vary all over the ball-park. In the WBC volume 17 on
> Job 1-20 David J. A. Clines notes
> "Most scholars today would date the composition of the Book of Job
> to some point between the seventh and the second centuries b.c.e., with
> the probability that a prose folktale of a pious sufferer existed long
> before the largely poetic book itself was written.
> "The story of the Book of Job is set in the patriarchal era depicted in
> Genesis: like Abraham, for example, Job’s wealth consists of his animals
> and his servants (1:3; 42:12; cf. Gen 12:16), and he himself as head of
> his family offers sacrifices without the intervention of any priest (1:5;
> cf. Gen 15:9–10). Like the patriarchs of Genesis, who live 175, 180, 147,
> and 100 years (Gen 25:7; 35:28; 47:28; 50:26), Job lives 140 years
> (42:16). But the narrator is clearly depicting an archaic age and not
> writing of his own time.

I always find statements like this one amusing. What's clear about it? 
Exactly how is it clear?

> "In a search for the date of composition of the book, many have observed
> that the theme of the suffering of the innocent is found also in Jeremiah
> and in the poems of the Suffering Servant of the Lord in Second Isaiah,

Ah yes, good ol' Second Isaiah, yet another hotly contentious topic which he 
glosses over as though this person's existence "stemming from the sixth 
century" is an established fact.

> both of these prophetic texts stemming from the sixth century. Some have
> thought that the inexplicable suffering of Job may have been intended to
> be symbolic of the suffering of the Jews in Babylonian exile in that
> century, and therefore to have been composed at about that period. But
> the author has so convincingly located his narrative in the patriarchal
> world that there are no clear contemporary allusions of any kind to the
> period contemporary with the author.
> "The earliest reference to Job outside the book is found in Ezek 14:14,
> 20, where Job is mentioned along with Noah and Danel (probably not
> Daniel) as an ancient hero. This sixth-century reference may well be,

Again, how does he know that it's "probably not Daniel"? While I tentatively 
agree for reasons of my own, just tossing it out like this seems a bit 

> however, not to the Book of Job but to a more ancient folktale; so no
> inference about the date of the book can be drawn.

And of course, we have the ever-popular "may well be." It may well be that 
Keebler cookies really are made by elves in a hollow tree, but that doesn't 
establish their origin with any degree of certainty.

In reality, he's gotten absolutely nowhere. I'm reminded of a line from the 
old Dick Van Dyke show: "He says things that just sound so - so - that, uh, 
sound vague, but are in reality meaningless."

Dave Washburn
"Well, if I'd wanted a safe life, I guess I wouldn't have 
married a man who studies rocks." - Betty Armstrong (Fay Masterson)
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