[b-hebrew] Re: Re: 2 Sam 21 & Punishment

tladatsi at charter.net tladatsi at charter.net
Tue Apr 26 08:50:17 EDT 2005


I don't see that we are disagreeing.   Individuals of a 
later generation who had nothing to do with the initial 
crime, suffer the ultimate consequences of that crime.  The 
text of 2 Sam 21 do explicitly or implicitly state that the 
seven decendents of Saul had anything to do with his 
crimes.  The sins of the father are visited upon the sons 
and grandsons.  We are agreeing.

lYPVadim Cherny" <VadimCherny at mail.ru>
> Date: 2005/04/25 Mon AM 11:23:29 GMT
> To: <tladatsi at charter.net>
> CC: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: 2 Sam 21 & Punishment
> I tend to disregard numerous rationalizations of human 
actions by divine
> will contained in Tanakh, but that's not the point.
> Here it goes about the wicked house of Saul. David was 
right to exterminate
> the house to eliminate future claims. Saul did not commit 
the crime alone,
> like common murderer. Rather, the crime was committed by 
> establishment, a corporate body. This establishment had 
to be eliminated in
> full. Relatives of Saul were eliminated not because they 
were his
> descendants, but because they were members of royal 
house, a body that
> committed the crime.
> Israelites suffered famine not for Saul's crime, but for 
failure to purify
> their community of that crime by timely killing his 
> Vadim Cherny
> > The text I read is this, in English (ASV) and Hebrew:
> >
> > Now there was a famine in the days of David for three
> > years, year after year; and David sought the presence 
> > the LORD. And the LORD said, "It is for Saul and his 
> > house, because * he put the Gibeonites to death."
> >
> > $eQbyw hn$ yerx) hn$ eyn$ $l$ dwd yemyB b(r yhyw
> > lW)$-l) hwhy rm)Yw hwhy yenP-t) dwD
> > . eyn(bGh tymeh-r$)-l( eymDh tyeB
> >
> > It would seem that there was a famine (drought?) in 
> > David asked Yahweh why there was such a long famine.
> > Yahweh answered that the famine was brought on my 
> > crimes against the Gibeonites.  It is the Isrealites
> > (probably the Gibeonites as well) who are suffering 
> > the famine which was the result of Saul's crimes.  Saul 
> > of course dead at this point.  David kills Saul's two 
> > and five grandsons both to appease the Gibeonites and
> > Yahweh.  This seemed to have been effective as it says 
> > the end of 2 Sam 21:14.
> >
> > and after that God was moved by prayer for the land.
> >
> > aek-yerx) ur)l eyhl) ret(eYwjlMh hWc-r$) lK
> >
> > Once more, I do not mean to offend anyone but the story
> > seems quite transparent.  Saul commits a crime.  There 
is a
> > famine as a result of that crime (causing much 
suffering no
> > doubt).  The children and grandchildren of the criminal 
> > killed.  The crime is avanged and the famine is lifted.
> >
> >
> > Jack Tladatsi
> >
> >

Jack Tladatsi

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