[b-hebrew] karu or ka'ari (Ps 22:16) ?

Schmuel schmuel at escape.com
Sun Apr 24 19:59:54 EDT 2005


Hi b-hebrew,

>Walter R. Mattfeld wrote:
>> I have a question of scholars on this list versed in Hebrew, is the
>> following information correct or incorrect, or "in dispute" as to meaning
>> regarding the word karu or ka'ari ?  (snip) 
>> "On Psalm 22:16 "they pierced my hands and my feet" (King James Version) (snip)

Dave Washburn
>I'd have to say it's "in dispute."  

Schmuel
Agreed, and Dave makes good points.  (Dave, you should be able to see the DSS on the web,
url link/picture below, per the previous 2002 discussion)  btw, I have seen some defenders
of "like a lion" change the phrase to an exclamatory declaration, supposedly to lesson the 
grammatical objection.

I placed a lot of information in four posts a while back.  
Much of it is historical rather than directly etymological.

Please note the email from Emanuel Tov discussing the Hebrew, including the grammatical
aspects, also Tov discussed the DSS and  the LXX reading.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/message/7196
Link to Tim Hegg article on DSS

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/message/7197
Emanuel Tov email, including the Hebrew pause issue

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/message/7198
Hebraic historical understanding 

And a link to a grammar discussion
(disclaimer -- although the discussion is interesting, and perhaps even 
 accurate, the actual writer was James Trimm, who is not a Hebrew scholar)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/message/7199
Various arguments/links ,  for "pierced" and against

Also of interest is the Ruben Barrett discussion which should come back, after revision, to
http://www.hadavar.net/Psalm22
And includes
http://www.hadavar.net/addendum.html
http://www.hadavar.net/Psalm22emails.html

Ruben is quite knowledgeable on this, so I look forward to his page returning.

btw, the actual question of Targum manuscripts is one that is especially
squirrelly, apparently they may fall on both sides, or they may be the one
early witness to "like a lion".  As I remember, Ruben was one of the few
folks really trying to research this.  While early evidence is quite substantially
in favor of the verbal form, a Targum with "lion" might be an argument for 
the reading being pre-Christian, even if the manuscript is post-100 AD. 

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/ 


>The biggest problem, as the translation 
>above subtly notes, is the lack of a solid relationship between "like a lion" 
>and "hands and feet."  The author had to supply "at" in order to make sense 
>of the clause, because "like a lion my hands and feet" is nonsense.  LXX 
>reads "they pierced".  4QPs(f) includes the verse (see DJD 16 p. 88).  It's 
>in pretty bad shape at this point, but based on line lengths and such it 
>appears to read KR[W], i.e. according to the editors there doesn't seem to 
>have been room for the aleph so it most likely read "pierced."  One could 
>wonder whether the "like a lion" reading might have arisen in reaction to 
>Christian use of the verse?
>Oh yes, the description of how biblical poetry works is quite simplistic and 
>only tells part of the story......




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