[b-hebrew] Re: END OF DISCUSSION Qestion on 18th Dynasty Egypt (Marianne Luban)

B. M. Rocine brocine at twcny.rr.com
Fri Nov 19 18:50:54 EST 2004


This discussion has wandered far afield from the mission of b-hebrew. 
Please take any remaining discussion of this topic off-list.  Thank you for 
your cooperation.

Bryan Rocine
b-hebrew co-chair

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walter R. Mattfeld" <mattfeld12 at charter.net>
To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 6:12 PM
Subject: [b-hebrew] Qestion on 18th Dynasty Egypt (Marianne Luban)

> Marianne Luban wrote:
>> Everyone has a right to his theories, of course.  That is understood. 
>> But
>> the fact is that the ancient historians all knew about Ramesses II.  They
>> could
>> hardly help it.  He is still the most visible king in Egypt even today.
>> But
>> not a single one of them ever suggested he may have presided over an
>> exodus.
> Walter replies:
> You seem to have forgotten that Manetho mentions an Exodus under Amenophis
> and son RAMESES.
> As to whether Manetho's Rameses is Rameses II is a contentious issue.
> Marianne:
>> Well, you are very much interested in the archaeological evidence.
>> Certainly, there is scant archaeological evidence to support an
>> exodus--yet it is known
>> that groups of people came *into* Egypt and even conquered her.  But 
>> where
>> is
>> the archaeological evidence of those "entrances"?  By that I mean, people
>> bring stuff with them when they come in--not just when going out.  These
>> groups
>> didn't fly in on magic carpets, some of them being entire armies.  But
>> people
>> continue to bemoan why there is nothing left of the people "exodus"--as
>> though
>> the roads into and out of Egypt hadn't been a revolving door for 
>> centuries
>> even before the Common Era.  Where are the houses, the pottery?
> Walter replies:
> I am "surprised" by your argument, that there is no evidence for a large
> number of people coming into and leaving Egypt in the archaeological 
> record.
> Had you read the archaeological reports on what has been found in Egypt 
> and
> the Sinai, would know that such an argument is untenable. Trade goods from
> the Negev appear in Egypt in the Early Bronze Age and Egyptian items 
> appear
> in the Negev in the same period. Along the "way of Horus" the biblical 
> "way
> of the Philistines" archaeologists have found pottery and campsites
> witnessing these goods moving into and out of Egypt and the Negev. They 
> have
> even found "overnight" campsites along this route.
> As regards the arrival of the Hyksos in Egypt, there is archaeological
> evidence showing a sudden rise in Tel el Yehudiyeh wares accompanying the
> Hyksos from locations in the southern Canaan as well as ports along the
> Mediterranean littoral. Egyptian goods are also found in these faraway
> locations. The "absence" of the Tell el Yehudiyah wares -which appear in
> large quantity in Egypt- along the way of Horus has led scholars to 
> suggest
> that these wares were imported into Egypt via ships (maritime trade).
> Stratigraphically the rise in Tel el Yehudiyeh wares can be plotted at
> Avaris (Tell ed Daba) as the city swells and expands with more and more
> arrivals of Asiatics into Egypt, who build more and more houses and 
> temples
> initially on Asiatic models. So it is untenable to argue that there is "no
> evidence for the arrival or departure from Egypt" of _large_ groups (and 
> the
> Exodus according to the Bible as of a "large" group). When the Hyksos were
> expelled from Avaris, the Tell el Yehudiyeh wares came to an end and the
> site was abandoned until the founding of Pi-Ramesses in the 19th dynasty
> under Ramesses II. How do we know this ? They found Ramesside wares in
> Avaris, marking the entry into a site which had been abandoned since the
> Hyksos expulsion.
> Marianne:
> >Tents are not
>> houses and some people don't even a "ware"--that is a specific type of
>> pottery.
>> Water can be carried in skins and dishes can be wooden ones, too, or of
>> metal.  Nomads don't make pottery.
> Walter replies:
> Had you read the archaeological reports for the Sinai you wouldn't be 
> making
> the above statement. Pottery debris left by nomads, herders of sheep and
> goats, are documented for the Stone Age, Early Bronze, and Middle Bronze.
> Their campsites have been found with "pottery scatters", sometimes remains
> of temporary stone huts and corrals for the animals have been found.
> Charcoal remains of ancient campfires have also been found. Yet NO LATE
> BRONZE AGE or IRON I has been found in the Sinai, with the _exception_ of
> the Egyptian-run mining camps at Serabit el Khadim and vicinity.
> As regards Mount Sinai, although there are over a dozen proposals for its
> location none have been accepted because the Late Bronze Age (1560-1200 
> BCE)
> or Iron IA (1220-1150 BCE) pottery remains don't exist to document the 
> site
> being proposed. I am UNAWARE of ANY archaeological debris in the vicinity 
> of
> Gebel Musa or Ras Safsafa, or Gebel Katharina, or the plain of er-Raha
> (where Israel suppossedly camped) that is datable to the "Before Christ"
> era. The earliest debris in this area is Late Roman thorugh Byzantine
> (4th-9th century BCE). The "nearest debris of the BCE era is some 4 miles
> away, ENE of the St. Catherine's monastery at Sheikh Nabi Saleh in wadi 
> esh
> Sheikh, a headwater of Wadi Feiran. The site has been excavated by
> Beit-Arieh and it is an Early Bronze encampment with stone huts and 
> corrals.
> He has found remains of campfires, and copper workings as they were miners
> from the Negev (their pottery is from Negev clays) exploiting the copper
> mines of Wadi Reqeita. WNW of er Raha is another BCE site, Sheikh Awad by
> Nagb Hawah, it too has been excavated and it is Early Bronze II, with huts
> and corrals.
> Many scholars understand the sudden appearace of villages of stone in Iron
> IA (1220-1150 BCE) Canaan'sHigh Lands and Negev as well as Transjordan are
> Israel settling the land under Joshua. Excavations reveal that these
> settlers cooked their meals in earthenware cooking pots. Earthenware 
> cooking
> pots are documented for the Sinai in the Stone Age, Early Bronze, Middle
> Bronze but NOT the Late Bronze or Iron I with the exception of the
> Egyptian-run mining camps of Serabit el Khadim.
> If ANYONE has knowledge of archaeological debris of the "BCE period" from
> the vicinity of the plain er Raha and Gebels Musa, 'Arribeh, Ras Safsfa 
> and
> Katharina, I would be _most appreciative_ of recieving said data to update
> my files on  the Exodus and the archaeological evidence for it.
> Professor Beno Rothenberg has suggested that the crude handmade Negebite
> ware is misdated 10th century BCE and that it is Ramesside as he found it 
> in
> contexts with Ramesside cartouches at the Egyptian mining camp at Har 
> Timna
> in the Arabah. If he's right, then the Negev was occupied by nomads in the
> Ramesside era, the 13th-12th centuries BCE.
> Regards, Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.
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