[b-hebrew] Exodus Date (Josephus vs. Manetho)

Walter R. Mattfeld mattfeld12 at charter.net
Mon May 31 07:59:25 EDT 2004


Below is some info I have put together from Josephus' ciatations of Manetho
and my humble attempt to come to grips with Manetho's statements and see if
there is any verification or support for a Ramesside Exodus as he claimed.

As noted in earlier posts I do acknowledge two Exoduses being fused here and
garbled, the Hyksos expulsion of the mid 16th century BCE and the late 13th
early 12th century settlemnt of Canaan in Iron IA, of the Ramesside era.
Below are some transcribed notes from Josephus which are germane to the
arguments which follow, identifying Manetho's Amenophis with Seti I and his
son,co-ruling with him, Rameses II :

Source:

W.G. Waddell. Manetho. Loeb Classical Library. 1930, reprint 1980. Harverd
University Press. Cambridge, Massachusetts.

18th Dynasty :

14. Armesis, for 5 years.

15. Ramesses, for 1 year.

16. Amenophath (Amenoph), for 19 years.

Total, 263 years (18th Dynasty. p. 113. Waddell)

12. Armais (Danaus) for 5 years, banished from Egypt, fleeing brother
Aegyptus, settles at Argos, Greece.

13. Ramesses, also called Aegyptus, for 68 years.

14. Ammenophis, for 40 years.

Total, 348 years (18th Dynasty. p. 117. Waddell)

12. Armais, also called Danaus, for 5 years, banished from Egypt, flees
brother Egyptus to Argos, Greece.

13. Ramesses, also called Aegyptus, for 68 years.

14. Amenophis, for 40 years.

Total for the 18th dynasty, 348 years ( 18th Dynasty. p. 119. Waddell)

Amenophis'... 5 year old son Sethos, also called Ramesses after his
grandfather...(p. 12. Waddell)

19th Dynasty (from Syncellus) :

1. Sethos, for 51 years

2. Rapsaces, for 61 (66) years

3. Ammenephthes, for20 years

4.Ramesses, for 60 years

5. Ammenemnes, for 5 years***

6. Thuoris (Homer's Polybus, wife is Alcandra, Troy falls), for 7 years

Total 209 years (19th Dynasty. p. 149. Waddell)

1. Sethos, 55 years

2. Rampses, 66 yrs.

3. Ammenephthis, 40 yrs

4. Ammenemes 26 yrs

5. Thuoris (Polybus, wife Alcandra, Troy falls), 7 yrs

Total 194 yrs (19th Dynasty. p. 151. Waddell)

Armenian Version of Eusebius

1. Sethos 55 yrs

2. Rampses 66 yrs

3. Amenephthis 8 yrs

4. Ammenemes 26 yrs

5.Thuoris (Polybus, Troy falls), 7 yrs

Total 194 yrs (19th Dynasty. pp. 151,153. Waddell)

Dynasty 18 (Clayton) :

Amen-hotep III, 1386-1349 BCE (37 yr reign)

Amen-hotep IV (Akh-en-aten), Nefer-kheperu-re, 1350-1334 BCE (16 yr reign)

Smenkh-ka-re (Ankh-kheperu-re), 1336-1334 BCE (2 yr reign)

Tut-ankh-amun (Heqa-iunu-shema) Neb-kheperu-re, 1334-1325 BCE (9 yr reign)

Ay (it-netjer) Kheper-kheperu-re, 1325-1321 BCE (4 yr reign)

Hor-em-heb (mery-amun) Djeser-kheperu-re Setep-en-re, 1321-1293 BCE (28 yr
reign)

Dynasty 19 (Clayton) :

Ra-messes I Men-pehty-re, 1293-1291 BCE (2 yr reign)

Seti I (mery-en-ptah) Men-maat-re, 1291-1278 BCE (13 yr reign)

Ra-messes II (mery-amun) User-maat-re Setep-en-re, 1279-1212 BCE (67 yr
reign)

Mer-ne-ptah, (hetep-her-maat) Ba-en-re-mery-netjeru, 1212-1202 BCE (10 yr
reign)

Amen-messes (heqa-waset), Men-mi-re-Setep-en-Re, 1202-1199 BCE (3 yr reign)

Seti II (mer-en-ptah) User-kheperu-re-setep-en-re, 1199-1193 BCE (6 yr
reign)

Siptah (mer-en-ptah), Akh-en-re-setep-en-re, 1193-1187 BCE (6 yr reign)

Queen Twosret (setep-en-mut), Sitre-mery-amub, 1187-1185 BCE (2 yr reign)

Dynasty 20 (Clayton) :

Set-nakhte (mereramunre) User-khau-re-Setep-en-re, 1185-1182 BCE

Ra-messes III (heqa-iunu) User-maat-re Mery-amun, 1182-1151 BCE

Ra-messes IV (heqa-maat-re) 1151-1145 BCE

Ra-messes V User-maat-re, 1145-1141 BCE

Ra-messes VI NebmaatreMeryamun, 1141-1133 BCE

Ra-messes VII User-maat-re Mery-amun Setep-en-re, 1133-1126 BCE

Ra-messes VIII User-maat-re Akh-en-amun, 1133-1126 BCE

Ra-messes IX Nefer-kha-re Setep-en-re 1126-1108 BCE

Ra-messes X Kheper-maat-re, 1108-1098 BCE

Ra-messes XI Men-maat-re Setep-en-ptah, 1098-1070 BCE

Josephus refutes Manetho's claim that the Exodus was under a king called
Ramesses and his father Amenophis, claiming the Exodus was much earlier when
the Hyksos shepherds were expelled to found Jerusalem under Pharaoh
Tuthmosis :

"After citing a king Amenophis, a fictious person...Manetho attaches to him
certain legends, having doubtless forgotten that according to his own
chronicle the exodus of the Shepherds to Jerusalem took place 518 years
earlier. For Tethmois was king when they set out; and according to Manetho,
the intervening reigns thereafter occupied 393 years down to the two
brothers Sethos and Hermaeus, the former of whom, he says, took the new name
of Egyptus, the latter that of Danaus. Sethos drove out Hermaeus and reigned
59 years; then Rampses, the elder of his sons, for 66 years. Thus, after
admitting that so many years had elapsed since our forefathers left Egypt,
Manetho now interpolates this intruding Amenophis." (p. 121. Waddell)



Waddell notes various proposals for Manetho's Amenophis and 5 year old son
Ramesses also called Sethos, and 'the polluted' Egyptians who have settled
at Avaris and invited the Jerusalemites to invade Egypt and reclaim their
ancstral home:

"This namesake [Amenophis son of Paapis], then replied that he would be able
to see the gods if he cleansed the whole land of lepers and other polluted
persons. The king was delighted, and assembled all those in Egypt whose
bodies were wasted by disease: they numbered 80,000 persons. These he cast
into stone-quarries to the east of the Nikle, there to work segregated from
the rest of the Egyptians. Among them, Manetho adds, there were some learned
priests, who had been attacked by leprosy. Then this wise seer ...added a
prediction that certain allies would join the polluted people and would take
possession of Egypt for 13 years..." (pp.123-125. Waddell)

"...king Amenophis is at one time Merneptah, son of Ramesses II; at another
time, Amenophis IV (Akhnaten), some 200 years earlier. The doings of the
polluted, the persecution of the gods, and the slaughter of the holy
animals, clearly portray the fury of Akhnaten and his followers against
Egyptian religion...For a theory about the identity of 'the polluted' (they
are the troops of Sethos I, sent to Tanis by his father Ramesses I during
the ascendancy of Horemhab) see P. Montet, "La Stele de l'An 400 Retrouvee,"
in Kemi, iii. 1935, pp. 191-215." (p. 123. note 1. Waddell)



"...Amenophis...As for his five-year-old son Sethos, also called Ramesses
after his grandfather Rapses, he sent him safely away to his friend. He then
crossed the Nile with as many as 300,000 of the bravest warriors of Egypt,
and met the enemy. But, instead of joining battle...he made a hasty retreat
to Memphis..." (p. 129. Waddell)

All who have studied Manetho and the various recensions have noted garbled
and confusing statements about lengths of reigns and sequences of the reigns
of the Pharaohs. But they also have recognized in the garbeld information,
bits and pieces of real historybeing preserved. The task is to winnow the
chaff (misinformation) from the historical kernels, using the surviving
records of Egypt (papyri and monuments carved in stone).

Manetho's Armais has been identified by some scholars as being Pharaoh
Horemhab :

"...Armesis (Armais) is probably Haremhab: Ramesses, vizier of Haremhab and
afterwards Ramesses I..." (p. 113. Note 2. Waddell)

The 18th Dynasty (see above) has Armesis (Horemhab ?) reigning 5 years (p.
113 Waddell) followed by Ramesses I for 1 year, THEN _AMENOPHATH (Amenoph)
for 19 years (p. 113. Waddell).

This suggests for me, that AMENOPHATH is none other than Seti I, who follows
to the throne after his father, Ramesses I, who is given a reign of 2 years
according to Clayton instead of 1 year according to Manetho.

This aligns somewhat with Josephus citing Manetho, that Amenophis' 18
year-old son Rameses (also called Sethos) is the grandson of
Ramesses/Rhapses (p. 129 Waddell), who joins him in expelling the Leperous
Quarrymen of Avaris and the Jerusalemite invaders who have despoiled Egypt
for 13 years.

The problems ?

If Seti I is Manetho's Amenophis (18th Dynasty ruler number 16. Amenophath (
Amenoph), for 19 years. p. 113 Waddell, following number 15 Ramesses, for 1
year), then Manetho is associating the Exodus with the beginnings of the
19th Dynasty, and claiming that Seti I and son Ramesses II are behind the
expulsion of the polluted Egyptians and Quarrymen of Avaris and their south
Canaanite allies from Jerusalem.



Some scholars claim an Exodus in the days of a Pharaoh Thutmoses. Why ?
Apparently they accept Josephus' citing Manetho that the Exodus was under a
Tethmosis (p. 121. Waddell's Manetho). Also apparently accepts the biblical
statement of 1 Kings 6:1 that 480 years elapsed from the Exodus to Solomon's
4th year and building of the temple in Jerusalem, Solomon's 4th year as ca.
966 BCE giving an Exodus ca, 1446 BCE. The problem ? Clayton dates Tuthmosis
III, 1504-1450 BCE (p.104), and Amenhotep II, 1453-1419 BCE (cf. Peter A.
Clayton. _Chronicle of the Pharaohs_. London. Thames & Hudson. 1994). But
there does exist disagreement amongst Egyptologists on the dating of the
reigns (the so-called high-middle-low chronology) so, Thuthmoses II can be
dated 1501-1447 BCE (cf. p. 599. James Henry Breasted. _A History of Egypt_.
1912. New York. Scribner's & Sons). However Aling, a noted conservative
Christian scholar, opts for a 1446 BCE Exodus in the days of Amenhotep II,
whom he dates ca. 1453-1415 BCE (p. 97. "The Exodus." Charles F. Aling.
_Egypt and Bible History from the earliest times to 1000 BC_. 1981. Baker
Book House. Grand Rapids, Michigan).

Do Egyptian annals mention _ANY_ of "the players" that appear in the
Pentateuch,the first five books of the Bible allegedly written by Moses ca.
1446 BCE ? That is to say, do we find on the monuments or papyri of Egypt,
ca. 1446 BCE, ANY mention of Moab, Seir, Edom, the Philistines all of whom
appear in the Exodus account ??? The answer is NO !

What about the Ramesside era, favored by Manetho ? The Anastasi VI papyrus
from the days of Merneptah mention nomads from EDOM seeking to enter Egypt
to water their flocks. Ramesses II mentions raiding the tent camps of the
Seirites to plunder them of their cattle. Ramesside inscriptions also
mention MoAB and allegedly DIBON, a town in Moab according to the
Egyptologist, Kenneth A. Kitchen. Ramesses III ca. 1175 BCEmentions the
Pelest (Egyptian prst) understood tobe the PHILISTINES invading Egypt in his
reign and settling them in cities bound in his name and their Aegean pottery
appears in his reign in what we call Philista.

Archaeologists have discovered the Hill Country of Canaan where Israel
settles is almost void of settlement in the Late Bronze Age (ca. 1560-1200
BCE), when the Exodus is believed to have ocurred (ca. 1446 BCE, cf. 1 Kings
6:1), but in Iron IA suddenly 300+ stone villages appear out of no where,
with a population approaching 20,000+ and Hazor is destroyed and burned
along with Megiddo and Lachish- all mentioned in Joshua's account. From
these Iron IA villages Israel in Iron II evolves into the Monarchy of Saul,
David and Solomon.

It would appear that the _attestation_ from Egyptian records, papyri, and
monuments supports a Ramesside event as espoused 2000 years ago by the much
maligned Manetho !

Regards, Walter

Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.

mattfeld12 at charter.net

www.bibleorigins.net



















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