[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole

UUC unikom at paco.net
Mon May 24 13:23:20 EDT 2004


Dear Liz,

What you say is possible, if you accept that ch.53 and inserts like 56:9-11
refer to quite another person, probably an expected savior.

How do you see 55:5? It seems to imply that the unknown nation will attack
Israel, not save her.


Best regards,

Vadim




> I have concluded that the description of Cyrus
> in the Cyrus songs matches the description of the
> person in Isaiah 42:1-7; 48:14-16; 49:1-6;
> 51:4-5; 55:4-5; 61:1-3a (which I also assign to Second
> Isaiah). Why add a savior when Cyrus is already
> in the text? The only reason I can see is Christological.
> Best,
> Liz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of UUC
> > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 10:22 AM
> > To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole
> >
> > Dear Liz,
> >
> > But if you concede that Isaiah was written over the prolonged
> > time, why do you attribute description of every savior to Cyrus?
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Vadim
> >
> >
> > > You don't think that these books were written over hundreds
> > of years
> > > with later authors adding to earlier ones? For you, every word is
> > > original, part of the UR-Text?
> > > Liz
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of UUC
> > > > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 1:27 AM
> > > > To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole
> > > >
> > > > Dear Liz,
> > > >
> > > > > > > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > > > > > Yeah? How about vs.5,6?
> > > > > Dunno.
> > > > > Cyrus in 61:1-4.
> > > > You cannot pick and choose whatever verses may be related
> > to Cyrus
> > > > and disregarding the others, while stating that Isaiah wrote of
> > > > Cyrus as savior.
> > > > There are clearly verses that don't fit your hypothesis.
> > > >
> > > > > > > And it is Cyrus in 42
> > > > > > vs.2,3?
> > > > > Who else could it be?
> > > > Not proclaiming on streets?? Not breaking a reed??
> > > >
> > > > > > , in 48:14ff, in 49
> > > > > > obviously not in vs.3,4?
> > > > > I omit "Israel" in 3.
> > > > Omit it also from the discussion with Abram, and you would get
> > > > Persians a chosen nation
> > > >
> > > > > Why do you translate clei as clay?
> > > > > They are usually silver and gold. Check out the uses of
> > the term
> > > > > in TANAK.
> > > > Any particular place regarding which you can state this for sure?
> > > > The root meaning is related to clay.
> > > >
> > > > > My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually
> > > > sinned or
> > > > > not. He bears the responsibility.
> > > > No! Sinned himself or not, he bears guilt, a precondition of
> > > > responsibility.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Vadim
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > (not in 50, unless he is
> > > > > > > the servant mentioned in 50:10)
> > > > > > So not everywhere?
> > > > > Pretty much every where.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from
> > > > YHWH"s temple.
> > > > > > > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to
> > the vessels
> > > > > > > from YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > > > > > Yes, but they are clei vessels, which wouldn't be
> > taken by the
> > > > > > occupants, unless our understanding of the then material
> > > > culture is
> > > > > > way off the mark.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Their sin becomes
> > > > > > > his responsibility. It's a legal obligation, not a
> > moral one.
> > > > > > In Judaism, the whole concept of mishpat is centered
> > > > around zedek;
> > > > > > remember the story of the two pillars. No
> > responsibility without
> > > > > > guilt. The high priest actually shares the guilt of his
> > > > people, not
> > > > > > some guiltless responsibility, like in criobolium (well,
> > > > > > possibly even there). They are one body before the Almighty.
> > > > > My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually
> > > > sinned or
> > > > > not. He bears the responsibility.
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Liz
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vadim
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Not to delve in the correct translation of every
> > > > word, here it is:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 10. He has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all
> > > > the nations.
> > > > > > > > All the ends of the earth have seen it! -- the saving
> > > > > > power of our
> > > > > > > > God!
> > > > > > > > 11. Depart! Depart! Get out from there!
> > > > > > > > Touch no unclean thing.
> > > > > > > > Get out from the midst of it! Purify yourselves, you
> > > > who carry
> > > > > > > > YHWH's clei (earthen vessels, or weapons).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > prepare to be the holy warriors, in a sense
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from
> > > > YHWH"s temple.
> > > > > > > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to
> > the vessels
> > > > > > > from YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > > > > > > What is your problem in seeing them here? Why bring in some
> > > > > > extraneous
> > > > > > > thing when the whole point of Deutero-Isaiah is to get the
> > > > > > people to
> > > > > > > leave Babylon and go to Israel to rebuild the temple and to
> > > > > > > install YHWH"s vessels in it?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Isaiah is comprised of many themes, with various
> > > > interpolations.
> > > > > > > > That he speaks about Cyrus chapters ago, doesn't mean he
> > > > > > speaks of
> > > > > > > > him here. How ouwl you weigh 52:13-15? As ugly Cyrus?
> > > > > > > I don't know.
> > > > > > > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > > > > > > And it is Cyrus in 42, in 48:14ff, in 49 (not in 50, unless
> > > > > > he is the
> > > > > > > servant mentioned in 50:10), and in 61, as I said.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the matter of shared guilt, I think you miss my point.
> > > > > > > On the day of atonement, the high priest purges the
> > > > sanctuary on
> > > > > > > behalf of himself and on behalf of the community. He is
> > > > > > carrying out
> > > > > > > his responsibility for their sin. This doesn't mean that he
> > > > > > didn't sin
> > > > > > > himself or that he did. It doesn't deal with that at all.
> > > > > > > Their sin becomes his responsibility. It's a legal
> > obligation,
> > > > > > > not a
> > > > > > moral one.
> > > > > > > When Truman said "the buck stops here," he meant he was the
> > > > > > > one who was ultimately responsible, not that he was guilty
> > > > > > > (and not that he wasn't guilty).
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > Liz
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
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