[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole

Lisbeth S. Fried lizfried at umich.edu
Mon May 24 07:43:53 EDT 2004


 Dear Vadim,
You don't think that these books were written
over hundreds of years with later authors adding
to earlier ones? For you, every word is original, part of the
UR-Text?
Liz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of UUC
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 1:27 AM
> To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole
> 
> Dear Liz,
> 
> > > > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > > Yeah? How about vs.5,6?
> > Dunno.
> > Cyrus in 61:1-4.
> You cannot pick and choose whatever verses may be related to 
> Cyrus and disregarding the others, while stating that Isaiah 
> wrote of Cyrus as savior.
> There are clearly verses that don't fit your hypothesis.
> 
> > > > And it is Cyrus in 42
> > > vs.2,3?
> > Who else could it be?
> Not proclaiming on streets?? Not breaking a reed??
> 
> > > , in 48:14ff, in 49
> > > obviously not in vs.3,4?
> > I omit "Israel" in 3.
> Omit it also from the discussion with Abram, and you would 
> get Persians a chosen nation
> 
> > Why do you translate clei as clay?
> > They are usually silver and gold. Check out the uses of the term in 
> > TANAK.
> Any particular place regarding which you can state this for sure?
> The root meaning is related to clay.
> 
> > My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually 
> sinned or 
> > not. He bears the responsibility.
> No! Sinned himself or not, he bears guilt, a precondition of 
> responsibility.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Vadim
> 
> > >
> > > > (not in 50, unless he is
> > > > the servant mentioned in 50:10)
> > > So not everywhere?
> > Pretty much every where.
> > >
> > > > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from 
> YHWH"s temple.
> > > > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to the vessels 
> > > > from YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > > Yes, but they are clei vessels, which wouldn't be taken by the 
> > > occupants, unless our understanding of the then material 
> culture is 
> > > way off the mark.
> > >
> > > >Their sin becomes
> > > > his responsibility. It's a legal obligation, not a moral one.
> > > In Judaism, the whole concept of mishpat is centered 
> around zedek; 
> > > remember the story of the two pillars. No responsibility without 
> > > guilt. The high priest actually shares the guilt of his 
> people, not 
> > > some guiltless responsibility, like in criobolium (well, possibly 
> > > even there). They are one body before the Almighty.
> > My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually 
> sinned or 
> > not. He bears the responsibility.
> > Best,
> > Liz
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Vadim
> > >
> > > > > Not to delve in the correct translation of every 
> word, here it is:
> > > > >
> > > > > 10. He has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all 
> the nations.
> > > > > All the ends of the earth have seen it! -- the saving
> > > power of our
> > > > > God!
> > > > > 11. Depart! Depart! Get out from there!
> > > > > Touch no unclean thing.
> > > > > Get out from the midst of it! Purify yourselves, you 
> who carry 
> > > > > YHWH's clei (earthen vessels, or weapons).
> > > > >
> > > > > prepare to be the holy warriors, in a sense
> > > >
> > > > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from 
> YHWH"s temple.
> > > > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to the vessels 
> > > > from YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > > > What is your problem in seeing them here? Why bring in some
> > > extraneous
> > > > thing when the whole point of Deutero-Isaiah is to get the
> > > people to
> > > > leave Babylon and go to Israel to rebuild the temple and to 
> > > > install YHWH"s vessels in it?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Isaiah is comprised of many themes, with various 
> interpolations.
> > > > > That he speaks about Cyrus chapters ago, doesn't mean he
> > > speaks of
> > > > > him here. How ouwl you weigh 52:13-15? As ugly Cyrus?
> > > > I don't know.
> > > > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > > > And it is Cyrus in 42, in 48:14ff, in 49 (not in 50, unless
> > > he is the
> > > > servant mentioned in 50:10), and in 61, as I said.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On the matter of shared guilt, I think you miss my point.
> > > > On the day of atonement, the high priest purges the 
> sanctuary on 
> > > > behalf of himself and on behalf of the community. He is
> > > carrying out
> > > > his responsibility for their sin. This doesn't mean that he
> > > didn't sin
> > > > himself or that he did. It doesn't deal with that at all. Their 
> > > > sin becomes his responsibility. It's a legal obligation, not a
> > > moral one.
> > > > When Truman said "the buck stops here," he meant he was the one 
> > > > who was ultimately responsible, not that he was guilty (and not 
> > > > that he wasn't guilty).
> > > > Best,
> > > > Liz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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