[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53: in his death?

Lisbeth S. Fried lizfried at umich.edu
Sun May 23 11:47:03 EDT 2004


Dear Karl,
We'll agree to disagree.
As for judges, read my article which I mentioned,
read my book due out this summer from Eisenbrauns.
Liz 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karl Randolph
> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 5:59 PM
> To: Hebrew
> Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53: in his death?
> 
> Liz:
> 
> Where do you get this kvatsch that
> Isaiah 53 was during the Persian period? 
> The Persian period didn’t begin until
> well after a century later!
> 
> Before you flame, I deliberately 
> overstated the above to make a point.      
> :-)
> 
> Yours is a theological position (some
> call it a philosophical belief) that not all on this mailing 
> list subscribe to. 
> Therefore, I find your confident
> assertions to be a little out of place.
> 
> Yes, we all understand this passage
> according to our preconceptions. But here our preconceptions 
> are driving how we see even Biblical Hebrew grammar and lexemes. 
> I see a place for your claims if you were to show directly 
> how it affects your understanding of Biblical Hebrew, but are 
> you doing that?
> 
> I suspect that you would agree with Peter Kirk that ‘the 
> present is the key to the past’, i.e. that present processes 
> are the same as have happened in _all_ of the past. 
> Therefore, because telling the future is something that is 
> not happening today, past records purporting to be telling 
> the future had to have been written after the “fulfillment”. 
> Those who don’t agree with your theology find your posts a 
> bit tiring at best, absurd at worst. Except where they 
> directly affect understanding Biblical Hebrew language, 
> should they be on this list at all?
> 
> On another issue, I wouldn’t put too much stock in the term 
> “messiah”. King Saul was one, so was David. There wasn’t much 
> of an issue made of it, but Solomon was one too. Therefore in 
> Isaiah 45 where Isaiah writes that God anointed Cyrus, that 
> should not be that much of an issue.
> 
> As for the judges, I suspect you are
> reading more into their identities than can be historically 
> verified. Those who would be appointed were most likely upper 
> level judges, not one for every little township. As long as a 
> people did not rise up in rebellion against Persian rule 
> (there is no record that I know of that Judea did so) there 
> would be no reason for Persian judges appointed to that land 
> or people. The evidence I see is that Judea continued to be 
> ruled by Jewish law, the same for Jews living in the Diaspora 
> in Jewish enclaves, until the Roman period.
> 
> Yours, Karl W. Randolph.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried at umich.edu>
> 
> > 
> >
 I'm talking about the
> > Persian period, which is the period of Isaiah 53. During 
> the  Persian 
> >period there were royal judges in Egypt which were  appointed by the 
> >Persian king (or his agent) in Susa.
> 

> > 
 I only stick in my article on Cyrus the Messiah.
> > I think it is worthwhile to remember tho that it is Cyrus 
> who is the 
> > Messiah in the book of Isaiah, not the servant.
> > Everyone conveniently forgets that in their effor to see 
> Jesus as the 
> > servant. That is what happens when passages are read out of the 
> > context of the entire book. The key to the book is to remember that 
> > Cyrus is the Messiah, no one else is called that in the 
> entire book. 
> > Cyrus is the Messiah because he fulfills the Messianic role : he 
> > rebulds the temple and returns the Jews to their land.
> > Best,
> > Liz
> > 
> > Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph. D.
> > Visiting Scholar
> --
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