[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53: in his death?
unikom at paco.net
Fri May 21 15:03:53 EDT 2004
If you agree on no difference between sin and guilt, then automatically you
come to no difference between sharing the guilt and being responsible for
it. Therefore, nasa is shared
I mean, we have no idea who wrote various books of Isaiah and at what time.
Can't extrapolate one reference to Cyrus to all books. mashiah wasn't too
high name in antiquity, so don't presume Isaiah is Cyrus-centered. Is53
evidently speaks of "one of us," a Jew.
>Milgrom suggests translating it as "bear responsibility for."<
No! See Lev22:15 if Aaronites profane the offerings, they (22:16) would be
What I'm saying, is that nasa in Is53 means being guilty, sharing the sin,
partaking in it. Not being responsible for others' sins, not taking them
away, not forgiving them. There is just no contrary precedent of nasa'
usage. Many people want to show that avdi was not tainted with avonot. I'm
saying - he surely was, because not in a single entry nasa means anything
else (with those caveats I mentioned, like Joseph forgiving for sin against
> > >That shouldn't be translated "bears the guilt of", but rather "bears
> > >the
> > responsibility of," the congregation, "takes responsibility
> > for the congragion."< In Jewish justice, there is no
> > responsibility without guilt. Period. You're retrojecting
> > modern concepts of pervasive sin, when a person feels guilty
> > when he is not.
> I'm not talking about guilt or sin, I'm just talking about taking
> responsibility for the actions of the community. Read Milgrom.
> Forget sin and guilt. It's just where the buck stops.
> > > think it is worthwhile to remember tho that it is Cyrus who is
> > the Messiah in the book of Isaiah, not the servant.< This is
> > your assumption, not a fact.
> Um, I'm quoting Isaiah 45:1. It is Isaiah's assumption, not mine.
> > >It means to take responsibility, but it doesn't imply
> > guilt. The High
> > >Priest nasa' 'avon of the congregation.
> > Lev22:16; bear the iniquity
> > Here is a challenge, if you will: show me one example of nasa
> > with avon, pesha or het as forgiving (the one forgiving
> > should be, of course, human, and the sins in question should
> > be more general than offense done to this particular man) or
> > evidently not related to sharing guilt. There is none.
> Milgrom suggests translating it as "bear responsibility for."
> I don't know what you're talking about forgiving.
> I don't know what you mean here. Sorry. Why forgiving???
> > Best regards,
> > Vadim
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