[b-hebrew] OT: a link about Modern Hebrew

Yigal Levin leviny1 at mail.biu.ac.il
Wed Jun 9 17:33:31 EDT 2004


----- Original Message -----
From: "VC" <vadim_lv at center-tv.net>
To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] OT: a link about Modern Hebrew


> Dear Yigal,
>
> Since Oral Tradition was not written but memorized, no layman could have
> known it.

Oral tradition was not (for the most part) memorized, but acted upon.
Judaism, then and now, deals more with practice than with theology. Whenever
any Jew preforms a commandment, he relys on oral tradition to tell him HOW
to preform it. How big should a Sukkah be? What counts as Hametz (leavened)
which must not be around the house on the Passover? What does "write these
words on your gates and doorposts, and tie them on your hand and between
your eyes" mean? Almost all of the PRACTICAL dietary laws, the Sabbath laws,
the laws of ritual purety, and many others, are part of the oral tradition.
Before the Mishnah, these were not written - they were simply acted upon.
The "common Jew", who may not have been literate, did as his father had done
before him, and when in doubt, turned to his local rabbi (who would have
been a Pharisee).


> bar Sheta introduced compulsory learning of Torah for Jewish boys.

Did he? What is your source for that? How was it enforced?

> I was also referring to the episode of Jesus reading in the synagogue. I
> guess this argument goes without verification for Christian scholars. Some
> kind of reading was there, anyway.
> Gospels contain the citations by supposedly knowledgeable NT personages.
So
> why they are distorted? Because the authoring folks relied on LXX, and
> distorted even it as it suited them. It did not make sense to appeal with
> this gibberish to Jewish scholars, right? But in the Acts, these folks
> lecture Sanhedrin with utterly distorted text. Makes any sense to you?

Both the Gospels and Acts, like the HB, are NOT historically accurate
reports of real events. They are literary descriptions of what the aouthors
thought should have happened. Since the Evangelists (including "Luke" who
wrote Acts) were Greek-speaking, they used the LXX (or something like it)
and assumed that their characters had done the same.

Yigal

>
> Sincerely,
>
> Vadim Cherny
>
>
> > Now, that's a sweeping statement (three, in fact)! I'll stay away from
the
> > NT authors, but what source do you have about "common Jews", besides the
> NT,
> > which clearly has an issue with Pharisees? In general, it was the
Priestly
> > Sadducees, who denied the validity of the "oral Torah", who were removed
> > from the "common people". The Pharisees were far more "connected" to
> > "popular religion", which included the oral tradition (this does NOT
mean
> > that every rule recorded in the Talmud necessarily reflects 1st century
> > custom).
> >
> > Did "every Jewish boy" study Torah? That would have certainly been the
> > ideal, but literacy was uncommon at best, including among Jews. What all
> > Jews DID learn, was the ORAL traditions, both as Bible-stories and as
> rules
> > for daily life.
> >
> > As far as the weekly readings: we don't really know how many Jews
> regularly
> > attended synagogue services. We don't really know how common the cyclic
> > reading of the Torah was at the time. And we have no idea what
> "additional"
> > readings, if any, were read. The earliest evidence we have of a
prophetic
> > reading after the Torah reading (what today is called the "Haftarah")
is,
> in
> > fact, the story about Jesus reading in the synagogue a Nazareth in Luke
> > 4:16-30. (By the way, the local tradition has it, that when they chased
> > Jesus to "the brow of the hill upon which the city is built", and "he
> passed
> > through them", he actually leaped from the hill south of Nazareth all
the
> > way to Mt. Tabor - the hill is called Har Haqepitzah - the hill of
> jumping.)
> >
> > And even assuming that most 1st century Jews attended synagogues, in
which
> > both the Torah and the Haftarah were regularly read, more or less as
they
> > are today, the Haftarot actually cover only a small selection of the
> > Prophets, and none of the Writings. Graduates of Orthodox Jewish
education
> > today are notorious for NOT knowing a whole lot of Nakh (Nebiim and
> > Ketubim).
> >
> > Yigal
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "VC" <vadim_lv at center-tv.net>
> > To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] OT: a link about Modern Hebrew
> >
> >
> > > Dear Chris,
> > >
> > > Neither common Jews, nor the Nt authors were concerned with the Oral
> > > Tradition. And Torah was studied by every Jewish boy. They were also
> > > familiar with Tanakh from weekly readings.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Vadim Cherny
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear vadim,  whatever you think of yeshua of Nazeret one thing can
be
> > > clear,
> > > > that his fingure pointing at the faults of the 'religious
authorities'
> > was
> > > > accurate.  The working class jewish man and woman of that day could,
> > with
> > > > some accuracy, be likened to the religious masses of 14th and 15
> century
> > > > Germany and England.  It was, to some extent, advantageous that the
> > > > religious authorities had carved out for themselves an element of
> > > > exclusiveness.  So I would hesitate to call them odd Jews who did
not
> > know
> > > > Tanach.  They knew what was important, they were aware of the
> prophecies
> > > and
> > > > they went to the feasts.  Just as today Jews that I met in Israel
are
> > very
> > > > much aware of popular thinking and feast celebrating,  but many of
> them
> > > find
> > > > the oral aspect of their law-interpreting leaders a burden.
> > > >
> > > > Regards Chris.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Surely, very odd Jews those have been. They did not know Tanakh,
cited
> > > > garbled quotations of the verses the should have studied in
childhood
> > (if
> > > > you know about bar Sheta reforms) and were unobservant. Wishful
> thinking
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > Vadim Cherny
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Michael Abernathy
> > > >
> > > >
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