[b-hebrew] The islands

VC vadim_lv at center-tv.net
Tue Jun 8 14:06:59 EDT 2004



> Actually, Vadim, until the construction of the Aswan Dam in the 1960's,
the
> Levantine coast was regularly supplied with sand and silt, washed in from
> the Nile. The causeway's being filled in by sand is perfectly reasonable.
I'm not sure, but from my experience of living near the sea, this does not
seem probable. I doubt seashore increases anywhere.

> Ez. 27, among others, clearly uses the imagery of a ship when talking
about
Sure, because Tyre is a port city.

Sincerely,

Vadim Cherny



>
> Yigal
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "VC" <vadim_lv at center-tv.net>
> To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The islands
>
>
> >
> > A mention in passing by Rufus, himself an author with very odd
> (surprisingly simple) Latin, running against the common sense?
> > Water is coming up for thousands of years, not down. The causeway, if
any,
> would have disappeared, not widened. If this causeway is man-made, it
still
> won't become wide enough to deserve the name of peninsula. It's natural,
> anyway, as anyone can see
> >
> > Jer 25:22 is about an island if only because vs22-23 seem to imply only
> one king there, like there was one king in Sidon. The place is across the
> sea, whether in the middle of it or no, there is no inference; lit., in
> crossing. No problem applying beavar to an island.
> > But even if we take it for continent, it still leaves the same puzzle:
how
> those remote folks threatened landlocked Jerusalem? Such military
operation
> was impossible in antiquity.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Vadim Cherny
> >
> >
> >
> >   Yes, a causeway.  This is information which is easily obtainable.
Here
> is a quotation from the _Anchor Bible Dictionary_ on "Tyre."
> >
> >   the most ancient towns on the Phoenician coast. Tyre (M.R. 168297) is
> situated about 40 km S of Sidon, and about 45 km N of Acco. In antiquity
it
> was an island ca. 600-750 m from the mainland (Curtius Hist. of Alex.
> 4.2.7), but since the time of Alexander the Great (actually beginning in
the
> summer of 332 b.c.) the island has been linked with the mainland by a
> causeway, which has broadened over the centuries. Thus, Tyre is now a
> peninsula.
> >
> >   Your insistance that "an island is an island is an island" only holds
> for English.  If you consider the passage Jer 25.22 previously mentioned
you
> will note that the MaLK"Y Ha)iY are said to be B.:("BeR HaYfM.  B.:(BeR is
> always used in reference to the other side of something such as B.:("BeR
> HaY.aRD."N.  It is not used for "in the midst of" which is B.:ToWK.  It
> would seem therefore that Jer 25.22 envisions a crossing to the other side
> of the sea to reach land, not to an island in the middle of the sea.
> >
> >   gfsomsel
> >   __________
> >
> >   On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:13:02 +0300 "VC" <vadim_lv at center-tv.net>
writes:
> >
> >   >Built a kilometer-long land bridge?
> >
> >   and
> >
> >   > Dear Reinier,
> >   >
> >   > I'm not sure how do you read Is23:2, but it seems to me that
> >   > Zidonians
> >   > crossed the sea to replenish the islanders. So the islands are
> >   > offshore. cf.
> >   > big waters in the next verse.
> >   >
> >   > Hebrew is not a dead language, nor it had ever been. A line of
> >   > Hebrew-speaking Jews never ceased in millennia. This is the oldest
> >   > living
> >   > language. Consider that Masorets knew even the cantillations; how
> >   > much more
> >   > certainly they knew the meaning of the words! If for millennia
> >   > islands were
> >   > islands, then there is a very high burden, indeed, to translate them
> >   > as
> >   > coastland.
> >   >
> >   > I don't take an appeal to the translation authorities, such as NJPS,
> >   > as an
> >   > argument.
> >   >
> >   > I mean, I'm not pushing any other translation. I really don't know
> >   > what was
> >   > the problem with these islands - unless, of course, these are the
> >   > much later
> >   > inserts in Isaiah about the Greeks, but then there is no evidence of
> >   > inserts
> >   > in the two relevant psalms.
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > Best regards,
> >   >
> >   > Vadim
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > > In the case of a dead language there is no such thing as an
> >   > established
> >   > > meaning. Who establishes the meaning of a word? The native
> >   > speaker. In
> >   > > this case we have no native speakers, only a limited amount of
> >   > data. The
> >   > > only reliable way to find out what a word (probably) means is by
> >   > > studying it within its context, and that is what I have done.
> >   > >
> >   > > If you want more proof I can refer you to Isaiah 23:2 where the
> >   > traders
> >   > > of Sidon and the inhabitants of the COASTLAND/ISLAND seem to be
> >   > > identical.
> >   > >
> >   > > Moreover, most recent English translations translate the Hebrew
> >   > word )IY
> >   > > with coastland, including the NJPS.
> >   > >
> >   > > Best wishes,
> >   > >
> >   > > Reinier
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > > > -----Original Message-----
> >   > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> >   > > > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of VC
> >   > > > Sent: dinsdag 8 juni 2004 9:06
> >   > > > To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> >   > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The islands
> >   > > >
> >   > > >
> >   > > > Dear Reinier,
> >   > > >
> >   > > > The translation of "coastland" is perfectly reasonable.
> >   > > > However, can we disregard the established meaning of the word
> >   > > > and attach it the sense, which we think suits it better? This
> >   > > > approach can lead as far away. Besides, the Tanakhic authors
> >   > > > had pretty good grasp on geography. They probably could
> >   > > > distinguish between an island and a coastland, even more so
> >   > > > since a large part of their country was a coastland or very
> >   > > > close to it.
> >   > > >
> >   > > > Best regards,
> >   > > >
> >   > > > Vadim Cherny
> >   > > >
> >   > > >
> >   > > > > Let us not be misled by the term "islands". The Hebrew word
> >   > > > probably
> >   > > > > has a wider meaning than that. Coastland may be a much better
> >   > > > > translation. Think of Isa. 20:6, for example, which
> >   > > > probably refers to
> >   > > > > Philistea, Tyrus, or Sidon, some place near Israel. In the
> >   > later
> >   > > > > chapters of Isaiah it may refer to all kinds of Greek and/or
> >   > > > > Phoenician colonies in the Mediterranean.
> >   > > > >
> >   > > > > Let us not forget that we have good maps these days. For us
> >   > the
> >   > > > > distinction between islands, peninsulas, and coastlands is
> >   > > > relevant. I
> >   > > > > doubt whether it had the same relevance for the writer of
> >   > > > > deutero-Isaiah.
> >   > > > >
> >   > > > > Best wishes,
> >   > > > >
> >   > > > > Reinier de Blois
> >   > > > >
> >   > > > >
> >   > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >   > > > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> >   > > > > > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> >   > > > Noam Eitan
> >   > > > > > Sent: dinsdag 8 juni 2004 1:09
> >   > > > > > To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
> >   > > > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The islands
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > > Peter Kirk <peterkirk at qaya.org> wrote:
> >   > > > > > On 07/06/2004 12:39, VC wrote:
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > > >Dear Listmembers,
> >   > > > > > >
> >   > > > > > >Just wanted to share a thought. What always puzzled me in
> >   > > > > > the Tanakh -
> >   > > > > > >and this turn is most often encountered in Isaiah - is the
> >   > > > > > reference to
> >   > > > > > >certain islands. They are clearly hostile to the Jews, ...
> >   > > > > > >
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > > >Where does it say this?
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > > Many of the 36 references to Islands in the Tanakh are
> >   > hostile,
> >   > > > > > particularly in the prophets. But it's not so much that
> >   > > > there is any
> >   > > > > > evidence they were hostile to the Judeans, but rather that
> >   > the
> >   > > > > > prophets were hostile to them, and even this hostility was
> >   > not
> >   > > > > > specific but often part of a generalized Yahwistic hostility
> >   > to
> >   > > > > > other nations who will be taught a lesson one day about
> >   > Yahweh's
> >   > > > > > superiority. I think Jeremiah 31:10 is emblematic -
> >   > > > 'Islands' stand
> >   > > > > > for the remotest corners of the earth (and Yahweh's message
> >   > and
> >   > > > > > score settling will reach EVEN as far as the islands.) -
> >   > Noam
> >   > > > > > Eitan, Brooklyn, NY
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > >
> >   > > > > > ---------------------------------
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