[b-hebrew] The islands

VC vadim_lv at center-tv.net
Tue Jun 8 10:09:22 EDT 2004


A mention in passing by Rufus, himself an author with very odd (surprisingly simple) Latin, running against the common sense?
Water is coming up for thousands of years, not down. The causeway, if any, would have disappeared, not widened. If this causeway is man-made, it still won't become wide enough to deserve the name of peninsula. It's natural, anyway, as anyone can see

Jer 25:22 is about an island if only because vs22-23 seem to imply only one king there, like there was one king in Sidon. The place is across the sea, whether in the middle of it or no, there is no inference; lit., in crossing. No problem applying beavar to an island.
But even if we take it for continent, it still leaves the same puzzle: how those remote folks threatened landlocked Jerusalem? Such military operation was impossible in antiquity.


Sincerely,

Vadim Cherny



  Yes, a causeway.  This is information which is easily obtainable.  Here is a quotation from the _Anchor Bible Dictionary_ on "Tyre." 

  the most ancient towns on the Phoenician coast. Tyre (M.R. 168297) is situated about 40 km S of Sidon, and about 45 km N of Acco. In antiquity it was an island ca. 600-750 m from the mainland (Curtius Hist. of Alex. 4.2.7), but since the time of Alexander the Great (actually beginning in the summer of 332 b.c.) the island has been linked with the mainland by a causeway, which has broadened over the centuries. Thus, Tyre is now a peninsula. 

  Your insistance that "an island is an island is an island" only holds for English.  If you consider the passage Jer 25.22 previously mentioned you will note that the MaLK"Y Ha)iY are said to be B.:("BeR HaYfM.  B.:(BeR is always used in reference to the other side of something such as B.:("BeR HaY.aRD."N.  It is not used for "in the midst of" which is B.:ToWK.  It would seem therefore that Jer 25.22 envisions a crossing to the other side of the sea to reach land, not to an island in the middle of the sea.

  gfsomsel
  __________

  On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:13:02 +0300 "VC" <vadim_lv at center-tv.net> writes:

  >Built a kilometer-long land bridge?

  and

  > Dear Reinier,
  > 
  > I'm not sure how do you read Is23:2, but it seems to me that 
  > Zidonians
  > crossed the sea to replenish the islanders. So the islands are 
  > offshore. cf.
  > big waters in the next verse.
  > 
  > Hebrew is not a dead language, nor it had ever been. A line of
  > Hebrew-speaking Jews never ceased in millennia. This is the oldest 
  > living
  > language. Consider that Masorets knew even the cantillations; how 
  > much more
  > certainly they knew the meaning of the words! If for millennia 
  > islands were
  > islands, then there is a very high burden, indeed, to translate them 
  > as
  > coastland.
  > 
  > I don't take an appeal to the translation authorities, such as NJPS, 
  > as an
  > argument.
  > 
  > I mean, I'm not pushing any other translation. I really don't know 
  > what was
  > the problem with these islands - unless, of course, these are the 
  > much later
  > inserts in Isaiah about the Greeks, but then there is no evidence of 
  > inserts
  > in the two relevant psalms.
  > 
  > 
  > Best regards,
  > 
  > Vadim
  > 
  > 
  > > In the case of a dead language there is no such thing as an 
  > established
  > > meaning. Who establishes the meaning of a word? The native 
  > speaker. In
  > > this case we have no native speakers, only a limited amount of 
  > data. The
  > > only reliable way to find out what a word (probably) means is by
  > > studying it within its context, and that is what I have done.
  > >
  > > If you want more proof I can refer you to Isaiah 23:2 where the 
  > traders
  > > of Sidon and the inhabitants of the COASTLAND/ISLAND seem to be
  > > identical.
  > >
  > > Moreover, most recent English translations translate the Hebrew 
  > word )IY
  > > with coastland, including the NJPS.
  > >
  > > Best wishes,
  > >
  > > Reinier
  > >
  > >
  > > > -----Original Message-----
  > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
  > > > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of VC
  > > > Sent: dinsdag 8 juni 2004 9:06
  > > > To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
  > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The islands
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Dear Reinier,
  > > >
  > > > The translation of "coastland" is perfectly reasonable.
  > > > However, can we disregard the established meaning of the word
  > > > and attach it the sense, which we think suits it better? This
  > > > approach can lead as far away. Besides, the Tanakhic authors
  > > > had pretty good grasp on geography. They probably could
  > > > distinguish between an island and a coastland, even more so
  > > > since a large part of their country was a coastland or very
  > > > close to it.
  > > >
  > > > Best regards,
  > > >
  > > > Vadim Cherny
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > > Let us not be misled by the term "islands". The Hebrew word
  > > > probably
  > > > > has a wider meaning than that. Coastland may be a much better
  > > > > translation. Think of Isa. 20:6, for example, which
  > > > probably refers to
  > > > > Philistea, Tyrus, or Sidon, some place near Israel. In the 
  > later
  > > > > chapters of Isaiah it may refer to all kinds of Greek and/or
  > > > > Phoenician colonies in the Mediterranean.
  > > > >
  > > > > Let us not forget that we have good maps these days. For us 
  > the
  > > > > distinction between islands, peninsulas, and coastlands is
  > > > relevant. I
  > > > > doubt whether it had the same relevance for the writer of
  > > > > deutero-Isaiah.
  > > > >
  > > > > Best wishes,
  > > > >
  > > > > Reinier de Blois
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
  > > > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
  > > > > > [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
  > > > Noam Eitan
  > > > > > Sent: dinsdag 8 juni 2004 1:09
  > > > > > To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
  > > > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The islands
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > > Peter Kirk <peterkirk at qaya.org> wrote:
  > > > > > On 07/06/2004 12:39, VC wrote:
  > > > > >
  > > > > > >Dear Listmembers,
  > > > > > >
  > > > > > >Just wanted to share a thought. What always puzzled me in
  > > > > > the Tanakh -
  > > > > > >and this turn is most often encountered in Isaiah - is the
  > > > > > reference to
  > > > > > >certain islands. They are clearly hostile to the Jews, ...
  > > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > > >Where does it say this?
  > > > > >
  > > > > > Many of the 36 references to Islands in the Tanakh are 
  > hostile,
  > > > > > particularly in the prophets. But it's not so much that
  > > > there is any
  > > > > > evidence they were hostile to the Judeans, but rather that 
  > the
  > > > > > prophets were hostile to them, and even this hostility was 
  > not
  > > > > > specific but often part of a generalized Yahwistic hostility 
  > to
  > > > > > other nations who will be taught a lesson one day about 
  > Yahweh's
  > > > > > superiority. I think Jeremiah 31:10 is emblematic -
  > > > 'Islands' stand
  > > > > > for the remotest corners of the earth (and Yahweh's message 
  > and
  > > > > > score settling will reach EVEN as far as the islands.) - 
  > Noam
  > > > > > Eitan, Brooklyn, NY
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
  > > > > >
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