R: Balaams Kittim ships
mc2499 at mclink.it
Mon Dec 16 01:42:45 EST 2002
I'm sorry, Michael, that you haven't got the
idea yet that Ashur-Bel-Kala was a literary
copy-cat. If TP1 could do it then ABK could
repeat it. Yeah. Sure.
>> Musri is apparently given as Mehru, p21...
>Oh Ian, let not begin the discussion anew. It was discussed and decided
>beyond doubt on the ANE-List.
Believe what you want. Don't read the text.
I supplied the references. You didn't look.
>Ashur-Bel-Kala gets the gift of a "large female ape" from the same
>(and else animals unfitting your northern location). If you wish to
>on this subject, than do it please alone.
Firstly, understand that this is ABK's scribes
copy-catting TP1. Note ARI 2, TP1 doc 4, para 95,
"I received tribute from the lands Byblos, Sidon,
Arvad. I received a crocodile, a large female ape
of the sea coast." Note the female ape? Note the
Don't be an expert on fauna when you don't know
enough about it. Realise that the climate was
different at the time. Tuthmoses III hunted
elephants at Niya, TP1 (ARI 2, para44) did the
same in Harran and killed lions in the following
paragraph. The Phoenicians had the ape. How they
got it is irrelevant. Your conclusions are
The king of Egypt is said to have sent the ape
to ABK. There is no indication of any conflict
with or campaign against Egypt. The sending has
the appearance of a gift. You invent the conflict
>Musri has nothing to with Mehru
Famous last words. You haven't even looked at the
data, being convinced of your argument from
linguistic appearances in transliteration. You
will note as you seem to be using Grayson's ARI,
that he uses the name "Egypt" when talking about
ABK's gift. He doesn't use it when talking about
Musri. He doesn't think that it is Egypt. What
extra knowledge have you got? None.
Please read the texts. Here is a synopsis:
Ass. Royal Inscr. 2
TP1 Document 1
para34 deals with the axlamu Aramaeans.
Immediately following, paras 36-39, is the account of the
conquest of Musri and Qumanu who comes to Musri's aid, the
city of Hunusu, strewn with sipu-stones, 20000 Qumanu troops.
Then a summary of conquests from Lower Zab to...
TP1 Document 2
para 70 deals with the axlamu Aramaeans.
Immediately following, para 71, is the account of the
conquest of Mehru and Qumanu who apparently comes to
Mehri's aid, the city of Hunusu, strewn with sipu-stones,
20000 Qumanu troops. Then a summary of conquests from Lower
Document 2 has lacunae, but there is enough to show
that the two passages deal with the same subject in the
same context. This is sufficient to see that Musri and
Mehru are the same place, but let's continue...
TP1 Document 4
para94 lists together Lullumu, Salua, Qummenu, Kadmuhu and
Alzu -- all considered northern lands.
AN2 Document 2
para 419 lists amongst others Lullumu Qumanu, Mehru, Salua
and Uratru in a span from the Lower Zab in an unspecified
direction, though obviously north-westward.
Where is Qumanu and where is Mehru? Hopefully, you can see
that Mehru is somewhere near Qumanu, which is consistent
with the notion that Mehru and Musri are the same.
Ass. Royal Inscr. 1
Para 529 says Shalmaneser subdued Uruatri (=Uratri),
passing through Salua amongst others, para 528 that he
reduced Arinu, para 529 that he subdued Musri and
para 530 deals with Hanigalbat.
If context is meaningful, Musri is clearly north,
especially when we think that Hatti was a major
power at the time so there was no easy transit in
the area, except through hostile Mitanni. Arinu is
further north than you imagine, as shown by the
movement southward in the above passage.
Para 600 calls Shalmaneser the conqueror of Lullumu and
Qutu and subduer of Musri.
Again, northern locations.
Did Shalmaneser conquer Egypt or some other bunch in
southern Levant, when Assyria was still dealing with
the realms around it, such as Mitanni?
Obviously the Musri mentioned by TP1 was not Egypt
and nowhere near it. Nor was it Egyptian holdings in
Syria. At the time of TP1, Egypt had none.
The most logical explanation is that Musri is much closer
to old Assyrian territories. Hence Shalmaneser could
Amongst Shalmaneser's conquests along with Musri was Qutu,
a northern realm mentioned along with Mehru by Tukulti-
Ninurta. (TN1 Doc 1, para 691)
TN1 Document 2
para 701 has Qutu again with Mehru and now
This Uqumanu is near Paphu and is therefore a candidate
for being at the north-east end of Kizzuwatna's land, ie
the Qumanu of TP1's account.
Qumanu is near both Musri and Mehri. Musri and Mehri are
closely parallelled in two TP1 documents. Musri is Mehru.
>(even if we assume a south-Mediteranean menagerie - crocodiles et al-
>far north) since there is a Musri documented at the southern border of
>Agusi. In a border reglementation act concerning TL´IM (probably
>Telaim), to be identified by the rules known for the ANE with Sfire, it
>came to a contract between the coaltions of "whole Aram" and Musri.
>(the by than destroyed chapital of Bit-Agusi) is 10 miles appart of
>thus 10 miles away of the border of contempt (in the 8th century)
>Musri and "whole of Aram". Arinu was in the 11th century a main city of
>Musri (before the creation of Bit-agusi). The allegation of T-P I
>conquered all of Musri is correct. He conquered all of Musri till to
Working from the translation I have before me,
you have an unknown kingdom of KTK making a treaty
with Matti'el of Arpad and with "all of Musr" and
with his (Matti'el's) sons in all upper and lower
Aram. I don't see what that has to do with your
>I don´t wish to further investigate the merits of the Mehru-Musri
I can understand why.
>The whole Kittim story contributes nothing to the problem. So much
>dwelling hyatus in Jerusalem, Babylon, or Tyre, or even Kition don´t
>any consequence concerning the name of these metropoles before their
>destruction. I would like to purge any reference to the Kition
>since it is irrelevant.
Whatever that means, thank you. As it was the
Kittim which was my main interest in the
original query, and you have abandoned your
musing in that direction, the major basis of
factual contention is over.
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