Child theme in Isaiah 6-12

Peter Kirk Peter_Kirk at
Wed Feb 7 07:55:35 EST 2001

OK, Ian, I don't want to discuss Enoch and Daniel, though I think you may be
going too far to say "fact" even here. This certainly isn't a "fact"
concerning Isaiah, just an unprovable hypothesis.

By the way, when you refer to "vaticinio ex eventu" or even "vaticinium..."
(perhaps you were writing Italian not Latin?), do you imply that there
actually was an event after which the prophecy was made? Or would you use
the term where, in your judgment, both the event and the prophecy of it were
the author's own imagination projected into the past? Or where the event was
non-historical but already understood to have happened, and the author then
imagined a prophecy of the event?

Peter Kirk

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Hutchesson [mailto:mc2499 at]
Sent: 06 February 2001 20:03
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: Re: Child theme in Isaiah 6-12

>Yes, Ian, you made your original point, which I accept: "Aren't all these
>prophecies vaticinio ex eventu, as the status quo suggests, given 1 Enoch
>and Daniel?" And I don't want to start a discussion about Daniel, but
>about Isaiah. I was assuming that Isaiah was prophesying before the fact,
>and you were right to point out that this is unproven.
>My objection was rather to your second posting, when you use the word
>about your alternative hypothesis. I am simply pointing out that this is
>also unproven. If you say "fact", I expect conclusive evidence, which
>doesn't exist either way.

Here is what I said to Jonathan, Peter:

>I was talking about texts and the fact that those "prophetic" books we knew
>for sure about were vaticinio ex eventu, and extrapolating from there.

Tbose "prophetic" books we knew for sure about were Daniel and 1 Enoch as I
had previously stated. I give as fact their use of vaticinio ex eventu.

The extrapolation was from these books to Isaiah: as those books I can be
sure about used vaticinio ex eventu, we have a fair case for Isaiah using it
as well.

I don't see what your problem could be.


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