Atonement Vs. Redemption

Shoshanna Walker rosewalk at concentric.net
Sat Aug 18 22:12:18 EDT 2001


Off list, because it was requested of us.


>
> >Yes, it connotes freedom
>
>Yes, freedom from slavery to sin.




That's not anywhere in the Torah.

Another thing that Christianity fabricated.  Either a deliberate 
fabrication, or a complete and total lack of understanding of Hashem 
as revealed in the Torah.

Proof:  Geula was always a POSITIVE thing in the Torah, something to 
celebrate.  Something we look forward to.  Something which will 
"fix", forever, the entire creation.

Hashem was very wise not to require of us to be obsessed with sin

Why did you do it, why the obsession?


>
> >The Christian priest, the cross, saying "you are marked as Christ's
> >own forever" is what I referred to as an invention, and not in the
> >Torah, this is NOT what Hashem, Moshe or the prophets did.
> >Christianity has taken many Biblical concepts and reinvented them.
>
>Modern Jews have taken many Biblical concepts and reinvented them as

>well.  Christians are not unique in that category.


You have to clarify.  Are you talking about modern reform and 
Conservative Jews?  Their inventions are not considered valid by the 
Torah observant Jews, who have been the keepers of an unbroken 
tradition.  We haven't invented anything, all the writings, the 
commentaries, the mishna, the Talmud and Kabbala, are just to 
elucidate, and relate the Torah and halacha to modern conditions, as 
the conditions change and develop.  It is all contained in the Torah, 
it has been there all along, we have not created anything new.

>
> >Hashem did not write the new testament, however.  So this does not
> >enlighten us as to the Biblical concepts of redemption and atonement.
>
>Hashem inspired human authors to write the New Testament, so the
>New Testament is the Word of God just as the Old Testament is the Word
>of God.  The doctrine that the Bible is the Word of God is a Tradition
>of the Catholic Church.


It can be said that Hashem inspired every creative endeavor, however 
the degree of perfection differs.  Mozart wrote that he had all this 
music enter and take over his brain, and that if he did not write it 
down, he would have gone crazy, in other words, he attributed all his 
work, not to himself, but to some higher being.  That was also 
Hashem, why?  Because there exists NOTHING ELSE but Hashem.  But 
Hashem is revealed by degrees, according to the merits, of the 
recipient.  Neither Mozart's work, nor anything but the original 
Torah, is a blueprint for the entire existence and the laws whereby 
it functions at its optimal level.  You cannot compare what human 
beings wrote, however inspired, with what Hashem wrote.

Much of what we think is inspired by Hashem, is an illusion, if we 
are not assiduously obeying His laws, we will not be privy to great 
cosmic truths, we will not be able to transcend our own human 
imaginations.

Shoshanna



>
> >Shoshanna
>
>
>
>Cindy Smith		I have further observed under the sun that
>cms at dragon.com		The race is not won by the swift,
>cms at 5sc.net		Nor the battle by the valiant;
>cms at romancatholic.org	Nor is bread won by the wise,
>			Nor wealth by the intelligent,
>Me transmitte sursum,	Nor favor by the learned.
>	Caledoni!		-- JPS Ecclesiastes 9:11
>
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