JEPD Evidence

Jonathan Bailey jonathan.bailey at
Sun Dec 19 19:04:48 EST 1999

I will take my place among my brothers Thomas Aquinas, Jerome, Luther, and Origen 
in the Fraternity of the Non-Scholars.

---------- Original Message ----------

>Well, I will have to accept that you are not a scholar. Maybe a
>fundamentalist in disguise. We have plenty of them in my part of the
>business and they are still trying to prove that the sun turns around the
>earth. It is not worth going on, and I still think that you are in the wrong
>place. I hardly believe that any scholar of any reputation will consider
>your point in a serious way, and I have ny now more than 30 years of
>experience. Funny that you are located in Heidelberg, close to the
>Dielheimer circle, but you probably never read any of their stuff. 

>Email list are like paper, you can write whatever you want, the paper does
>not object. But to declare yourself above any scholarly consideration means
>that nobody will really pay atention to you. Wrong discourse, sorry


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Jonathan Bailey [SMTP:jonathan.bailey at]
>> Sent:	Sunday, 19 December, 1999 21:21
>> To:	Niels Peter Lemche
>> Subject:	Re[8]: JEPD Evidence
>> Well, I am glad you are not one of my teachers. I would not, at any rate,
>> call an 
>> indoctrination into the cult of natural humanism an education.
>> You are going to have to define scholarship for me. It seems from your
>> version of 
>> scholarship is more concerned with the methodologies of some holy
>> fraternity of 
>> naturalist thinkers than than an intellectual and reasonable discussion of
>> any subject, 
>> which by necessity must give some place, no matter how small, to the
>> supernatural. 
>> Let me reiterate: To exclude all possibility of a supernatural element is
>> to abandon 
>> reason for dogma.
>> One must be careful not to worship scholarship, an all to frequent vice of
>> men with 
>> PhDs, particularly if one has not clearly defined scholarship. I, for one,
>> do not feel that 
>> excluding the possibility of supernatural revelation of the bible is at
>> all scholarly.
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> >Dear Jonathan Bailey,
>> >Scholarship is not a free for all. You are simply introducing to the
>> field
>> >in a veruy outspoken way--and I am grateful because you make it in the
>> >open--elements that have nothing to do with a scholarly discourse. With
>> your
>> >basis in Germany, you must know the implications of Kant's categories and
>> >the irrelevance of religious sentiments, notions based on such
>> sentiments,
>> >the place of the supranatural in science etc. etc. Probably you do not
>> >understand this, but if this is the case, you have chosen the wrong
>> subject.
>> >In a scholarly discourse, anything that relates to the supranatural must
>> be
>> >left out of consideration. And I do not care whether or not you will
>> agree,
>> >but I would fail and probably any scholar worth his or her salt would do
>> the
>> >same if a student here wrote a thesis and included such ideas as the ones
>> >you have been advocating in this mail and other similar answers to this
>> >list. Try to get focused on the subject of scholarship. I do not want to
>> be
>> >more rude than necessary but a scolarly discussion belongs to a scholarly
>> >list and a discussion about personal religious sentiments and convictions
>> >belong in a religious list where such subjects are discussed.
>> >NPL
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From:	Jonathan Bailey [SMTP:jonathan.bailey at]
>> >> Sent:	Sunday, 19 December, 1999 12:53
>> >> To:	Biblical Hebrew
>> >> Subject:	Re[6]: JEPD Evidence
>> >> 
>> >> ---------- Original Message ----------
>> >> 
>> >> >	[Niels Peter Lemche]  In 1998, an Iman gave a lecture to me and my
>> >> >students in Damascus. One of his points was interesting. A commity of
>> >> >liberal Muslim theologians had worked for years on the text of the
>> Qur'an
>> >> in
>> >> >order to see whether it was the work of man or of God. Great surprise,
>> >> they
>> >> >had to conclude that such a text could not have been written by any
>> man,
>> >> so
>> >> >it must be God who was the author. I repeat my earlier remark that
>> this
>> >> idea
>> >> >about inspiration belongs in a different context.
>> >> 
>> >> I will make up a story about a group of humanistic bible theologians
>> who
>> >> set about to 
>> >> discover whether Torah was from men or from God. Great suprise, they
>> had
>> >> to 
>> >> conclude that such a text could not have come from God, so it must have
>> >> been a 
>> >> mish mash of pagan myths.
>> >> 
>> >> I don't know what you are trying to get at with your Muslim story, but
>> I
>> >> will say that I 
>> >> wrote my post to Kirk late last night, and my mentioning of the
>> >> possibility that the 
>> >> divine origin of Torah affecting our analysis of it was really not to
>> >> clever an argument in 
>> >> that context, and I will indeed keep such statements to a minimum. I do
>> >> challenge you 
>> >> however, to see your desire to exclude any religious argument from our
>> >> discussions 
>> >> as really a plea for the universal adoption of the religion of secular
>> >> humanism in the 
>> >> list, and to remember, that though this list is a non religious list,
>> it
>> >> was originally 
>> >> started by Christians, and then joined by Jews and members of other
>> >> religions, and 
>> >> their views should also be welcome here. Now I am certainly not
>> advocating
>> >> sermons 
>> >> out of the OT, but since it seems that the history of the Hebrew text
>> is
>> >> on-topic for 
>> >> this list, one should be prepared for a variety of views concerning the
>> >> generation of the 
>> >> book, particularly since the book claims to be the written revelation
>> of
>> >> God on earth. If 
>> >> you can't tolerate people who are willing to treat the book like the
>> word
>> >> of God, then 
>> >> do not study the bible.
>> >> 
>> >> I am not asking you to reply to my posts or share threads with me. I am
>> >> just asking 
>> >> you not to get so upset by the fact that there are people on the list
>> who
>> >> are not 
>> >> coming from the same place you are. I will certainly not be upset if
>> you
>> >> wish to 
>> >> discuss the process by which primitive hunter-gatherers invented Yah.
>> The
>> >> list is 
>> >> open to all.
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> Jonathan Bailey
>> >> Hochschule für Jüdische Studien
>> >> Heidelberg
>> >> 
>> >> ---
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