[B-Greek] Good News! Mail feed for B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum

Jonathan Robie jonathan.robie at ibiblio.org
Fri Jun 17 07:16:35 EDT 2011


I have learned how to create a mailing list that sends a daily summary of
forum email. You can subscribe to this mailing list at the following URL:

http://feedburner.google.com/fb/a/mailverify?uri=bgreek

I am attaching the summary from yesterday, in HTML format. A plain-text
format is also available.

I hope this helps those who prefer mailing lists.

Jonathan

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum <jonathan.robie at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 2:45 AM
Subject: B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum
To: jonathan.robie at ibiblio.org


**
   B-Greek: The Biblical Greek
Forum<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/index.php>
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------------------------------

   - Church Fathers and Patristic Greek Texts • Re: Preparing for Patristic
   Greek <#1309c5913bc63bfc_1>
   - Introductions • Hoyt Roberson <#1309c5913bc63bfc_2>
   - Grammars • BBG has gone digital <#1309c5913bc63bfc_3>
   - Questions • Re: Having problems viewing fonts? (Call for Guinea
Pigs!)<#1309c5913bc63bfc_4>
   - Other • Re: Creating a "Reader's" Edition <#1309c5913bc63bfc_5>
   - Other • Re: Creating a "Reader's" Edition <#1309c5913bc63bfc_6>
   - Church Fathers and Patristic Greek Texts • Re: Preparing for Patristic
   Greek <#1309c5913bc63bfc_7>
   - Other • Creating a "Reader's" Edition <#1309c5913bc63bfc_8>
   - Questions • Re: Having problems viewing fonts? (Call for Guinea
Pigs!)<#1309c5913bc63bfc_9>
   - Questions • Re: Having problems viewing fonts? (Call for Guinea
Pigs!)<#1309c5913bc63bfc_10>
   - Other • Re: Origen's Hexapla Available <#1309c5913bc63bfc_11>
   - Other • Re: Learning Greek on one's own <#1309c5913bc63bfc_12>
   - Questions • Re: Having problems viewing fonts? (Call for Guinea
Pigs!)<#1309c5913bc63bfc_13>
   - Church Fathers and Patristic Greek Texts • Re: Preparing for Patristic
   Greek <#1309c5913bc63bfc_14>
   - Other • Re: Learning Greek on one's own <#1309c5913bc63bfc_15>

  Church Fathers and Patristic Greek Texts • Re: Preparing for Patristic
Greek<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/oJcjB3-M7-g/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 08:41 PM PDT

Charlie Johnson wrote:
Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon includes only words not found in LSJ. It's
1600 pages. Really, Church Fathers?



Of course not. From the Lampe's introduction:

Statistics: Posted by Barry
Hofstetter<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=58>—
June 16th, 2011, 11:41 pm
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Introductions • Hoyt
Roberson<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/b8_L_ZpWE2A/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 08:39 PM PDT
 Extreme beginner but fascinated by language and theology. Honored that you
folks would spend time doing what you do and let me listen in.

Thank you, and blessing intentions for all.

Statistics: Posted by
hroberson<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=478>—
June 16th, 2011, 11:39 pm
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Grammars • BBG has gone
digital<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/bTj4p5Y1tOQ/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 08:27 PM PDT
 Bill Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek is now available digitally on
OliveTree <http://www.olivetree.com/store/product.php?productid=17596>. He
has said that it should be released soon with Accordance as well. The
textbook will continue to be made available in print form while now being
released in the new format also, of course.

As the result of an inquiry on the Textkit forums, I approached Mr. Mounce
by e-mail, and he directed me to the OliveTree page, which is linked from
teknia.com <http://www.teknia.com>.

Statistics: Posted by Jason
Hare<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=207>—
June 16th, 2011, 11:27 pm
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Questions • Re: Having problems viewing fonts? (Call for Guinea
Pigs!)<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/6XuRmRGA6Ec/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 08:16 PM PDT

Louis L Sorenson wrote:
My Android Sprint phone (Browser 2.2.2) still shows square boxes. Is there
any fix for this? Do I need to install a font on it? I have no idea what to
do with it.



There is indeed a fix. Download and install the free app called
"Fontomizer." Once installed, open it from your app menu and look in the U
section of the font list for "Ubuntu" and "Ubuntu Bold." Download and
install those fonts, then go to the main settings menu and choose "Display."
>From there, go to "Font Style" and choose "Ubuntu Regular TTF" from the
list.

Et voilà! You've got Greek support on your Android phone. This worked for
me, and I'm quite happy with the results.

Let me know how it goes.

By the way, I'm using the Galaxy S GT-I9000T with Android 2.2.

Statistics: Posted by Jason
Hare<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=207>—
June 16th, 2011, 11:16 pm
------------------------------

Other • Re: Creating a "Reader's"
Edition<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/M2NAKo6hEfk/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 07:56 PM PDT

Charlie Johnson wrote:
I'm interested in creating "reader's" editions of Greek texts. For example,
I'm reading through the Epistle to Diognetus right now. I have to look up
uncommon vocabulary and difficult constructions as I go, so I may as well
record that information in a visually appealing, accessible format.

Does anyone have experience creating documents with a format that looks like
a reader's edition? What software would I use? I imagine that something
other than Microsoft Word + footnotes is optimal.



I have created an embarrassingly low-fi reader on my blog for the epistle of
Ignatius to the Magnesians, with the intention of adding the other six
Ignatius letters soon. Right now it is simply the Greek text with a running
glossary for vocabulary that would be unfamiliar to readers of the New
Testament, built on a simple Wordpress page. The format needs work, but it
is mostly a placeholder until I can fine-tune it and add some more
functionality.

You can find it here: http://www.greekingout.com/new-testamen ...
ne-reader/<http://www.greekingout.com/new-testament-greek-resources/ignatius-to-the-magnesians-online-reader/>I
would appreciate any feedback you might be willing to share.

Statistics: Posted by
refe<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=198>—
June 16th, 2011, 10:56 pm
------------------------------

Other • Re: Creating a "Reader's"
Edition<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/v23jA_591OI/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 07:25 PM PDT
 Geoffrey Steadman is the guy for this. He's created a number of readers
(secular Greek). See http://geoffreysteadman.wordpress.com/. I've had some
contact with him about creating a Reader's edition of Epictetus'
Enchiridion. Geoffrey uses MS Word and no database. If you contact him, he
would be more than happy (I believe) to give you some advice.

I have created an MS access database with many Greek functions that would be
suitable as a base engine for working on a Reader's edition. The base format
can be found at http://www.letsreadgreek.org/resources/ under
ntdatabase3.mdb. It needs some updating, but it is a frame for starting and
has betacode/greek transformation tools. It would perhaps be useful to turn
this database into a Reader Creation tool.

Those are my ideas. You need to create a base vocabulary -- what the
frequency is for words in the back is what determines what vocabulary is
listed on same page as the text. Then you need grammar notes for the
difficult constructions. It's best to use a text from 1921 or earlier. That
way you have no copyright infringements. A Reader's format is becoming a
standard kind of thing; look at Deckert's Koine Greek Reader, Steadman's
readers, The USB Greek Reader's NT and some of the other standard readers
out there. If your book fits in - it works. You should also think about
where you will publish your book - with Print-On-Demand available, there are
a number of options. Lulu, among others comes to mind.

Statistics: Posted by Louis L
Sorenson<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=56>—
June 16th, 2011, 10:25 pm
------------------------------

Church Fathers and Patristic Greek Texts • Re: Preparing for Patristic
Greek<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/ACYf5zhFioU/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 06:53 PM PDT
 Thanks, Dr. Decker. I would follow your recommendation, but I already read
through your reader sometime in the last few years. I especially appreciated
the N-C Creed.

By the way, I'm thinking of creating "reader's" editions of texts I read as
I go, so I would love your input on this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=272<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=272>

To all, thanks. I probably should have been more clear in my opening post. I
have dabbled in the Patristics before. I'm not dabbling anymore. I'm
seriously reading whole books in Greek. So, I'm asking what I need for that.
I think I do have a pretty clear answer now.

Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon includes only words not found in LSJ. It's
1600 pages. Really, Church Fathers?

Statistics: Posted by Charlie
Johnson<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=142>—
June 16th, 2011, 9:53 pm
------------------------------

Other • Creating a "Reader's"
Edition<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/D1kQpkvJRnE/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 06:39 PM PDT
 I'm interested in creating "reader's" editions of Greek texts. For example,
I'm reading through the Epistle to Diognetus right now. I have to look up
uncommon vocabulary and difficult constructions as I go, so I may as well
record that information in a visually appealing, accessible format.

Does anyone have experience creating documents with a format that looks like
a reader's edition? What software would I use? I imagine that something
other than Microsoft Word + footnotes is optimal.

Statistics: Posted by Charlie
Johnson<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=142>—
June 16th, 2011, 9:39 pm
------------------------------

Questions • Re: Having problems viewing fonts? (Call for Guinea
Pigs!)<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/WouSPQB8D2g/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 06:15 PM PDT
 My Android Sprint phone (Browser 2.2.2) still shows square boxes. Is there
any fix for this? Do I need to install a font on it? I have no idea what to
do with it.

Statistics: Posted by Louis L
Sorenson<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=56>—
June 16th, 2011, 9:15 pm
------------------------------

Questions • Re: Having problems viewing fonts? (Call for Guinea
Pigs!)<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/GpEamMf3JpA/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 05:47 PM PDT
 Hi Jonathon,

Ubuntu has all three fonts, but I don't expect other systems to have them
all. FreeSans is the GNU FreeFont and is a few years old; it should be very
widespread. DejaVu Sans is a remake of Bitstream Vera Sans, also nearly
universal in the last few years. These three should cover all systems, and
they implement all of the glyphs in Greek Extended and Basic Hebrew, which
is main requirement.

Off to sleep presently, just a few other quick thoughts...

1. @font-face has some complexities because of different browser support for
font formats; Google Font Directory hides this layer of complexity (e.g.
serving .eot font format to IE8, .woff to FF 3.5+, etc), but we'll have to
deal with it if we want to use unicode-range.
2. We can't specify a Linux-only stylesheet (well we can, but it probably
requires some CSS hacks or server-side config; best avoided); so the
Linux/Mac/PC font font-family list has to be combined. This means the first
matching font will be applied to everything: English, Greek and Hebrew,
which is at least viable for the current sans-serifs, but not good
otherwise.
3. User-preferred fonts will be better behaved if we are able to limit them
to just the language for which we know they are suitable; this in turn lets
us support more preferred fonts, as in my CSS for .greek. So my preference
is still to tag the Greek and Hebrew in the user's browser with Javascript.
Note that this doesn't change their posting at all on the server side, so
there's no reprocessing if we change or deactivate the JS later on.
4. If we go with blanket Didot for .postbody we don't get Hebrew characters
in the same font, and may still need to arrange support for them separately.


Nigel.

Statistics: Posted by Nigel
Chapman<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=280>—
June 16th, 2011, 8:47 pm
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Other • Re: Origen's Hexapla
Available<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/FsqhbGK5rMY/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 05:18 PM PDT

Devenios Doulenios wrote:
Mine says on the title page of the first volume:


OXONII:
E TYPOGRAPHEO CLARENDONIANO.
M DCCC LXXV

I believe the edition you mentioned was in the 1820's, so this is evidently
an earlier edition. Seems to have the same editors as yours, except with the
addition of Field.

Devenios Doulenios
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος



I must be more math-challenged than I thought...or distracted. Obviously
1875 is later than the 1820's. Apparently you said your edition was 1875
also, so it's moot.

Devenios

Sorry about any confusion I caused... [image: :oops:]

Statistics: Posted by Devenios
Doulenios<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=117>—
June 16th, 2011, 8:18 pm
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Other • Re: Learning Greek on one's
own<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/Biw4YcYrz18/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 03:58 PM PDT


I've never used Essentials but I've heard some complain that it is too
sparse when it comes to explanation and detail. Perhaps that's part of what
is tripping you up.



I used Summers/Sawyer in seminary for two semesters. Might I suggest
supplementing it with the workbook by Steven Cox (who incidentally was my
Greek professor)? The workbook helps tie things together.

The part in Summers/Sawyer where I had the greatest difficulty was
participles. They still trip me up. Anyone have a suggestion for good
coverage of participles?

I remember a paper presented at ETS in 1998 on all the available beginning
Greek grammars. I was struck by the fact that Summers/Sawyer was one of the
shortest. It struck me at that time that brevity in a Greek grammar may not
be such a desirable thing.

Mark Reed
Phenix City AL

Statistics: Posted by Mark
Reed<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=262>—
June 16th, 2011, 6:58 pm
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Questions • Re: Having problems viewing fonts? (Call for Guinea
Pigs!)<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/2QDSlMbLvcA/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 03:36 PM PDT

Nigel Chapman wrote:
I've just been through the fonts in the Insert > Special Character in Libre
Office... The Linux sans-serifs fonts with Greek Extended are: DejaVu Sans
(+ Light, + Condensed), Ubuntu (sugg. Light) and FreeSans. Except for
Ubuntu, these also have the "Basic Hebrew" block. And FreeSans is the
nicest, though like all of them it needs some extra leading. So the Linux
font-family I'd pick would be:

Code: font-family:  "FreeSans", "DejaVu Sans", "Ubuntu";



That's going to depend on your Linux distribution and what software you have
installed. For instance, Ubuntu is not available on most Fedora systems
(which is what I use).

I do have DejaVu Sans, and never intentionally installed it. I didn't have
FreeSans, but it's a Gnu font, and it's in my package database. I don't have
Ubuntu, and it's not in my package database (I can install it, but it's not
one of the normal Fedora fonts, and usually only Ubuntu systems will install
it). The GFS Didot fonts *are* in my package database. And it's also in the
package database for Ubuntu.

I also see that the GFS Didot fonts are in the package database for Ubuntu.
So perhaps for Linux, we could use this:

Code: font-family:  "GFS Didot", "FreeSans", "DejaVu Sans";

I'm fine with your recommendations for Mac and Windows.

Statistics: Posted by Jonathan
Robie<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=54>—
June 16th, 2011, 6:36 pm
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Church Fathers and Patristic Greek Texts • Re: Preparing for Patristic
Greek<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/60VGnQR95-g/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 02:44 PM PDT

RickBrannan wrote:

James Ernest wrote:Also, Charlie, where are you going to start? Rod
Whitacre's Patristic Greek Reader (published by Hendrickson, now with Baker
Academic [disclaimer (or would it be "claimer"): I work for Baker] gives an
excellent set of selections with notes to help you through them. Or you
could start with the Apostolic Fathers.



Since you're starting from NT Greek, I second this recommendation.
Whitacre's stuff is good and helpful, and the writings of the Apostolic
Fathers are the logical next step, both chronologically and in similarity to
the NT, if you're progressing into Patristic stuff. Start with Polycarp and
some Ignatius, when you're feeling good hit 1 Clement (though it's 65
chapters, so have realistic expectations). Stay away from Diognetus for
awhile. I think Hermas' Shepherd is some of the easier Greek in the corpus,
but it is long, so don't feel bad about hitting selections from it instead
of reading the whole thing.

...

Overall, if you're comfy with the Greek in the NT, I'd say just start
reading something and use grammars as reference along the way. Note BDF
cites Apostolic Fathers, as does BDAG, so reference searches of those in
software packages that include them can be very helpful.



I have had a lot of success doing exactly this, and it sounds like you
probably have a few good years of Greek on me. I started with Ignatius
because since he wrote all 7 letters around the same time he uses fairly
consistent vocabulary, so once you read one of his letters it get's
progressively easier to read on. My primary tool is BDAG, and for unfamiliar
constructions I simply refer to the same grammars I use for NT studies.

I'm not sure how linear the progression is from NT through the Apostolic
Fathers on to the later Patristics, but chronologically speaking it seems to
make the most sense to work your way up as others have suggested.

Statistics: Posted by
refe<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=198>—
June 16th, 2011, 5:44 pm
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Other • Re: Learning Greek on one's
own<http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/bgreek/~3/Gf-DTpZ8xQE/viewtopic.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email>

Posted: 16 Jun 2011 02:04 PM PDT

Will Braun wrote:
I am currently trying to teach myself Greek, though I'm finding it's pretty
difficult. Grammatically, it's so different from English, and the worst part
is not having an idea of how to pronounce the vocabulary, what with their
accents and everything. And accents are pretty terrible, too - I'm not quite
sure what difference they make, and the textbook I'm using (Essentials of
New Testament Greek) doesn't cover it.



Hang in there Will! Greek is not as hard as it seems at first. I also jumped
into Greek without any experience with inflected languages or non-latin
alphabets, and it took some time to get used to it but if you stick with it
the fog will clear.

Also, keep in mind that some intro textbooks are better than others for
self-study. I used Basics of Biblical Greek by Mounce, and while it has some
drawbacks it is still probably the easiest for independent learners,
especially with its companion workbook. I've never used Essentials but I've
heard some complain that it is too sparse when it comes to explanation and
detail. Perhaps that's part of what is tripping you up. Mounce on the other
hand is often criticized for giving too much explanation. That may be
frustrating in a classroom, but when you're on your own you need all the
help you can get.

If you want some help or just have some questions that you need answered
about wherever you're at in your studies please feel free to send me a
private message.

Statistics: Posted by
refe<http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=198>—
June 16th, 2011, 5:04 pm
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