[B-Greek] hUPOMONH and hWDE in REV (Was: The Use of the Greek Participle in Rev 17:7)

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Jul 21 09:42:53 EDT 2010


On the contrary, I think you are the one who fails to understand.

 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 6:36:11 AM
Subject: hUPOMONH and hWDE in REV (Was: The Use of the Greek Participle in Rev 
17:7)

----- Original Message ----- From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: <johncalvinhall at gmail.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 21. juli 2010 12:09
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The Use of the Greek Participle in Rev 17:7


> Ὑπομονή hUPOMONH is generally rendered by "endure" in most English
> translations. This is the sense that it seems to have in the rest of the NT,
> but I think it is a fundamental misunderstanding to render it as such in the
> Apocalypse. Note its usage in Re 1310
> 
> 
> εἴ τις εἰς αἰχμαλωσίαν, εἰς αἰχμαλωσίαν ὑπάγει·
> εἴ τις ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀποκτανθῆναι αὐτὸν ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀποκτανθῆναι.
> 
> ῟Ωδέ ἐστιν ἡ ὑπομονὴ καὶ ἡ πίστις τῶν ἁγίων.
> 
> EI TIS EIS AIXMALWSIAN, EIS AIXMALWSIAN hUPAGEI;
> EI TIS EN MAXAIRHi APOKTANQHNAI AUTON EN MAXAIRHi APOKTANQHNAI.
> 
> hWDE ESTIN hH hUPOMONH KAI hH PISTIS TWN hAGIWN.
> 
> 
> To understand it there as "endurance" is to make complete nonsense of the
> passage. To avoid such nonsense the RSV and NRSV have rendered it as "Here is 
a
> call for endurance...." when there is no call for anything indicated in the
> text. It rather simply posits its existence. I think BDAG's second sense of
> the word is more appropriate in the Apocalypse -- "expectation." What is there
> being stated then is that the expectation of the Church is that one's "fate" 
is
> determined and will be effected. It approaches the sense of "creed."george
> gfsomsel

I believe you have misunderstood hWDE ESTIN.

hUPOMONH means "endurance, perseverance" throughout the NT, and I can see no 
reason to understand it otherwise in Revelation. The English "patience" is less 
suitable as a gloss.

Rev 13:10 does not talk about the expectation of the church, but the need for 
the saints to persevere during affliction. Both trust and perseverance are 
needed.

We find the same pattern in other places where we have hWDE (ESTIN):

Rev 13:18 hWDE hH SOFIA ESTIN. hO ECWN NOUN YHFISATW TON ARIQMON TOU QHRIOU
Here is wisdom, i.e. In this situation there is a need for wisdom. Let the one 
who has mind/understanding calculate the number of the beast.

Rev 14:12 hWDE hH hUPOMONH TWN hAGIWN ESTIN
Here is the perseverance of the saints, i.e. In this circumstance, the saints 
must have perseverance. There is a need for perseverance. Perseverance is 
required or called for.

Rev 17:9 hWDE hO NOUS hO ECWN SOFIAN
Here is the mind/understanding, the one having wisdom, i.e. to understand what 
is described in this context requires a person with wisdom, an understanding 
mind.

Iver Larsen 



      


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