[B-Greek] John 8:17 DE
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Jul 8 07:44:16 EDT 2010
On Jul 8, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Eric Inman wrote:
> That's why I asked. I thought that connectives like DE were normally the second word in the clause, but on the other hand I couldn't remember ever seeing a clause beginning with KAI DE.
> In this case would it normally be expected after EN?
44x in the GNT, e.g.
Matt. 3:1 Ἐν δὲ ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις ...
Matt. 13:25 ἐν δὲ τῷ καθεύδειν τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ...
Luke 1:26 Ἐν δὲ τῷ μηνὶ τῷ ἕκτῳ ...
Luke 8:40 Ἐν δὲ τῷ ὑποστρέφειν τὸν Ἰησοῦν ...
136x in the LXX.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Conrad [mailto:cwconrad2 at mac.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 6:00 AM
> To: Eric Inman
> Cc: 'Marilyn Phemister'; 'B-Greek'
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:17 DE
> On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:49 PM, Eric Inman wrote:
>> I think the verse could easily be understood differently if DE were omitted, since then KAI would likely be considered a connective ("and") rather than an adverb ("even").
>> My question would be whether or not KAI DE EN TWi NOMWi TWi hUMETERWi GEGRAPTAI would be permissible, since that is what I would have expected.
> My question is why you would have expected that collocation. It doesn't appear anywhere in the GNT nor in the LXX, and I rather doubt that it's to be found in extant ancient Greek literature.
> Carl W. Conrad
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl Conrad
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 6:41 PM
>> To: Marilyn Phemister
>> Cc: B-Greek
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:17 DE
>> On Jul 7, 2010, at 5:19 PM, Marilyn Phemister wrote:
>>> **Esteemed Scholars:
>>> I am puzzled about DE in John 8:17. It seems to me that the verse would be translated the same with or without it. I'm afraid this is a silly question, but can someone tell me why DE is there? Is it translated AND or But with KAI being translated as ALSO? That would make sense to me, but I still wonder why it is needed.
>>> John 8:17: καὶ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ δὲ τῷ ὑμετέρῳ γέγραπται ὅτι δύο ἀνθρώπων ἡ μαρτυρία ἀληθής ἐστιν.
>>> KAI EN TWi NOMWi DE TWi hUMETERWi GEGRAPTAI hOTI DUO ANQRWPWN hH MARTURIA ALHQHS ESTIN.
>> What's odd here is not so much the presence of the DE as its positioning after the entire phrase KAI EN TWi NOMWi, which the writer must have deemed a unit that could not be split, although the attributive/appositional TWi hUMETERWi could be appended after it.
>> I think the sequence of verses 16 and 17 needs to be noted:
>> John 8:16 καὶ ἐὰν κρίνω δὲ ἐγώ, ἡ κρίσις ἡ ἐμὴ ἀληθινή ἐστιν, ὅτι μόνος οὐκ εἰμί, ἀλλ᾿ ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πέμψας με πατήρ. 17 καὶ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ δὲ τῷ ὑμετέρῳ γέγραπται ὅτι δύο ἀνθρώπων ἡ μαρτυρία ἀληθής ἐστιν.
>> [John 8:16 KAI EAN KRINW DE EGW, hH KRISIS hH EMH ALHQINH ESTIN, hOTI
>> MONOS OUK EIMI, ALL᾿ EGW KAI hO PEMYAS ME PATHR. 17 KAI EN TWi NOMWi
>> DE TWi hUMETERWi GEGRAPTAI hOTI DUO ANQRWPWN hH MARTURIA ALHQHS
>> In my opinion, Jesus in verse 16 is speaking of judgment in terms of his eschatological authority; in verse 17 he switches the discussion of the terms of Judaic legal practice: "Even by YOUR law ... " So what does the DE accomplish? I think it marks a contrast between absolute attestation and judgment and Mosaic traditions of attestation and judgment. As FWSFOROS MARKOS has put it, "Even in your law, after all, it is written ... " or "But even in your law, it stands written ... " I think there is a contrast marked by this DE, but Greek tends to use the connectives more generously than English; it really isn't needed in the English, but it can be supplied.
>> Nevertheless, one might have expected a sequence like GEGRAPTAI DE KAI EN TWi NOMWi TWi hUMETERWi hOTI ... I say, "one might expect" -- but maybe I'm the only one who would expect that.
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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