[B-Greek] 2 Thess 2:15
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Dec 30 14:09:55 EST 2010
On Dec 30, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:
> Carl wrote
> < On the other hand, it is alleged
> by whom? "It is alleged" has the air of a "divine passive." Was that the
> Hi, Carl,
> No, that was not my intent, although I do think that the grammarians were
> created a little lower than the angels. How much lower is a matter of opinion.
> I phrased it that way I did because I forgot where I read that, and I don't
> really know whether it is true.
> <It really would be funny if Paul had written δι’ τῆς ἐπιστολῆς ἡμῶν [DI' THS
> EPISTOLHS hHMWN] -- how frequently is an alpha elided before a tau?>
> Yes, a good point. I was cutting and pasting too. So, including the article
> would add TWO syllables. I really do believe that the presence of the definite
> article, like some other things in Greek--word order, which connective is used,
> even the tenses, is often more a matter of euphony than semantics. Thus, any
> way, it is alleged.
I take the "allegation" here to be that grammar sometimes matters and sometimes
doesn't. I've always thought grammar was primarily a matter of speaking and
writing in such a way that what you say and what you write conforms to the
patterns that people expect, and that when what you say and what you write does
not so conform, there's the peril of ambiguity.
One thing (?) seems clear: there's a bit of ambiguity in the phrasing of EITE DI'
EPISTOLHS hHMWN in 2 Thess 2:15.
Carl W. Conrad
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> Cc: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; "Ehrman, Bart D"
> <behrman at email.unc.edu>; "b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 11:27:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 2 Thess 2:15
> On Dec 30, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>> On the other hand, it is alleged
> by whom? "It is alleged" has the air of a "divine passive." Was that the intent?
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> that in Koine a noun in a prepositional phrase
>> may omit the article even if a definite reference is intended. εἴτε δι' τῆς
>> ἐπιστολὴς ἡμῶν may have sounded funny with the extra syllable, but there is a
>> chance that that is what Paul meant.
> It really would be funny if Paul had written δι’ τῆς ἐπιστολῆς ἡμῶν [DI' THS
> EPISTOLHS hHMWN] -- how frequently is an alpha elided before a tau?
>> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Ehrman, Bart D" <behrman at email.unc.edu>; "b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org"
>> <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 10:32:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 2 Thess 2:15
>> Ἄρα οὖν, ἀδελφοί, στήκετε καὶ κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε εἴτε διὰ
>> λόγου εἴτε διʼ ἐπιστολῆς ἡμῶν.
>> ARA OUN, ADELFOI, STHKETE KAI KRATEITE TAS PARADOSEIS hAS EDIDAXQHTE EITE DIA
>> LOGOU EITE DI' EPISTOLHS hHMWN.
>> It is generally understood that mentioning an item with an article indicates
>> that the subject is known to the reader. Whether one can therefore say that
>> when there is an absence of an article it indicates an item which is not known
>> to the reader might be a bit questionable. In this case I would think that
>> while it does not point to any specific letter (despite the fact that this is
>> known as 2nd Thess), but rather it must be understood in the same way that DIA
>> LOGOU is to be understood. It is not some specific statement to which
>> is made but rather to whatever ORAL tradition he may have imparted. So DI'
>> EPISTOLHS would reference any written communication.
>> From: "Ehrman, Bart D" <behrman at email.unc.edu>
>> To: "b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 10:12:55 AM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] 2 Thess 2:15
>> In his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, W. Marxsen claims that since 2:15 εἴτε
>> δι' ἐπιστολὴς ἡμῶν lacks an article (as in εἴτε δι' τῆς ἐπιστολὴς ἡμῶν) it does
>> not refer back to a specific letter (e.g., to 1 Thessalonians) but is meant in
>> general sense to refer to any ole letter that he may have written (or not). If
>> he had wanted to refer to 1 Thessalonians in particular, he would have used the
>> article. I’m interested in the grammatical question. What do y’all think?
>> n Bart Ehrman
>> Bart D. Ehrman
>> James A. Gray Professor
>> Department of Religious Studies
>> University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
More information about the B-Greek