[B-Greek] Matthew 22:34

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sun Dec 12 08:02:13 EST 2010

Iver wrote

<Nor is there any hint of purpose in the idiom...>

Hi, Iver,

I think what happened is that Oun's suggestion "for the same purpose" reminded 
me of Blue Harris' recent post


and that post rubbed me the right way.

 Mark L


From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>; Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 11:41:57 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 22:34

----- Original Message ----- From: "Oun Kwon" <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
To: "Biblical Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 12. december 2010 01:07
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 22:34

> I wonder why I should buy an opinion of BDAG rather than FWSFOROS (his
> is more enlightening)?   Isn't it enough to see the text just say
> 'When they gather together'? What does the idiomatic phrase in a
> locative sense says more than what the text says?

That is exactly what an idiom means. You have an expression with several words, 
literally "at the same (place)", but an idiom is to be taken as a whole, and as 
such it simply means "together". There is no need to look for a neuter 
antecedent of AUTO, since it is a fixed expression that always uses AUTO. Nor is 
there any hint of purpose in the idiom. Every translation correctly translates 
the idiom as "together".

> In this particular example in 1Co 7:5, many English translations
> actually omit it, while a few seems take it as 'purpose' when
> paraphrasing (as in NET '.... resume your relationship').
> Oun Kwon.

I cannot see that any translation takes the idiom as suggesting purpose, nor 
that many English versions omit it. Which ones are you referring to? CEV makes 
it implicit in "unless you agree not to have sex for a little while". Since it 
is for a little while, it is understood that after a period devoted to a special 
time of prayer without sex, then they should again have sex together. Bible 
translators normally want to use euphemisms for this activity, since the Bible 
is being read publicly in all sorts of situations. GNV: "marital relations" and 
NET: "your relationship". NET's "resume" translates PALIN HTE. In my opinion, 
the NET is unnecessarily broad. Obviously, when husband and wife are together in 
this sense, they have to be at the same place, but using the literal "be 
together again" should be clear enough in the context. Meaning is not only 
derived from words in isolation, but from words that occur EPI TO AUTO.

Iver Larsen

> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>> > <No, I don't think the notion of purpose would be expressed with EPI +
>> > accusative. I think that Iver is right and the lexicographical
>> > evidence is sufficiently convincing.>
>> >
>> > Hi, Carl,
>> >
>> > You guys are probably right, but cf. 1 Cor 7:5, where there seems to be a > 
>> > of purpose. That is the picture I have in my mind, the completion of a > 
>> > event that is at least as telic as it is locative.
>> I think not. I think that BDAG has it right, s.v. EPI
>> " 1. marker of location or surface, answering the question ‘where?’ on, upon, 
>>near ...
>> c. w. acc., answering the question ‘where?’
>> β. ἐ. τὸ αὐτό [EPI TO AUTO] at the same place, together ... "
>> -- and 1 Cor 7:5 is cited specifically for this sense.
>> Carl W. Conrad
> ---

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