[B-Greek] John 14:30b what sense?

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 15 10:26:21 EDT 2010


Eric wrote

<I get the feeling that the author of John tends to formulate his own  idioms
rather than just using preexisting ones due to the highly  repetitive nature
of his phrasing and rephrasing of things. Therefore  I tend to like a rather
literal translation into English, thus  allowing corresponding English idioms
to form as well. The English  translations might not occur in normal English,
but I'm not sure that  John's phrasings were normal Greek. Thus in Johanine
idiomatic  English I would just say "he has nothing in me". In proper English
I  would say "he is completely separate from me".>

Hi, Eric, 

It's not just you.  I get a similar feeling.  When I read John, I always notice 
something about
the Greek.  It's Greek, and it's not Greek.  It's simple and artless, and yet 
something is going on that is deeply creative.  You put your DAKTULON on it 
well.

Carl Ruck wrote something to the effect that one of the reasons why Greek is so
hard is because Greek writers almost felt imprisoned to literary traditions.  
Rather
than express themselves in their own way, they were bound to use inherited 
forms.
I wish I could remember the exact quote.  You've got the shadow of Homer and the
great Attic geniuses hovering over everything, with the result that Greek 
literature until
demotic was burdened by a certain, let us just say, retentiveness. 

But John, whoever he was and however he came to this level of invention, felt
free to do some new things with the Greek.  As you say, he created his own 
idioms,
did his own thing with prepositions and word order and connectives. 

Of course, on some level every Greek writer, inside and out the NT, does his own
thing.  But I think your analysis of this passage is a good example that with 
John we
are not in Kansas, or even Attica, anymore. 

 Mark L



FWSFOROS MARKOS




________________________________
From: Eric Inman <eric-inman at comcast.net>
To: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sun, August 15, 2010 3:46:09 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 14:30b what sense?

The way I take it is that in John two parties are fully identified with each
other when they are one ("hEN"), when they are in (EN) each other (John
17:21-23). I take EN EMOI OUK ECEI OUDEN as the opposite of that. The ARCWN
has nothing in Jesus, i.e. no part of him is in Jesus, i.e. he has no
association with Jesus whatsoever and nothing of his nature.

I get the feeling that the author of John tends to formulate his own idioms
rather than just using preexisting ones due to the highly repetitive nature
of his phrasing and rephrasing of things. Therefore I tend to like a rather
literal translation into English, thus allowing corresponding English idioms
to form as well. The English translations might not occur in normal English,
but I'm not sure that John's phrasings were normal Greek. Thus in Johanine
idiomatic English I would just say "he has nothing in me". In proper English
I would say "he is completely separate from me".

Interestingly John's terminology is very similar to that used in set theory.
Two sets are equal if each is in (is a subset of) the other. Two sets are
disjoint (no overlap) if no portion of either is in the other, if either has
nothing in the other.

Eric Inman

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Oun Kwon
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:11 PM
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [B-Greek] John 14:30b what sense?

Jn 14:30
OUKETI POLLA LALHSW MEQ' hUMWN, ERCETAI GAR hO TOU KOSMOU ARCWON.
KAI EN EMOI OUK ECEI OUDEN

The last sentence KAI EN EMOI OUK ECEI OUDEN is difficult to get a clear
sense. My attempt is (in English):

Yeah, in me he has nothing to find [to make me do otherwise].

I would appreciate if I have a translation of Latin on this (? by
Augustine)(found in Alford).

Nullum scilicet omnino peccatum.

Oun Kwon.


Oun Kwon.
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