[B-Greek] Robinson/Pierpont 2005 Readers-Edition

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Tue Aug 10 19:18:28 EDT 2010


Kevin asked

<Would you rather read Homer as it is, 
or have it 'smoothed' so it  fits the grammar of some grammar book?>

I'd rather have the grammar book smoothed out so it fits Homer.

<People have a tendency to learn the first version they read, and then 
compare  all others against that.>

Good point, but one thought that has occurred to me is that what we really
need is the MT and the Critical Text printed on opposite pages.  This is
really the only fair way to compare the texts.  As it is now, the other side
gets relegated to partial footnotes at the bottom of the pages.  There are
some electronic versions that show the texts side by side. 

 Mark L



FWSFOROS MARKOS




________________________________
From: Kevin Riley <klriley at alphalink.com.au>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 4:43:21 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Robinson/Pierpont 2005 Readers-Edition

  People have a tendency to learn the first version they read, and then 
compare all others against that.  We could 'smooth' a lot lot of Greek 
texts so they are easier for learners, but then they would not be 
learning Greek as it was written.  Would you rather read Homer as it is, 
or have it 'smoothed' so it fits the grammar of some grammar book?

Kevin Riley

On 11/08/2010 5:56 AM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I would appreciate if you would give a  few examples of the text which
>> got 'smoothing out'.
> Hi, Oun,
>
> Here's a few more examples in addition to the good one Carl just
> gave:
>
> 1.  Mt. 6:32 MT has a singular verb επιζητεῖ EPIZHTEI with the neuter plural
> subject τα εθην TA EQNH, whereas the NA text has a plural verb επιζητοῦσιν.
>
> 2. 1 Cor. 15:51b MT provides a MEN, missing in NA, to complete the DE.
>
> 3.  Gal 4:30 MT has the more normal subjunctive κληρονομήσῃ KLHRONOMHSHi
> after the OU MH while the NA has the future κληρονομήσει.  KLHRONOMHSEI
>
> Again, without arguing one text over the other in terms of history or 
theology,
> in terms of pedagogy, why not have students read the more grammatically smooth
> text first?
>
>   Mark L
>
>
>
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Carl Conrad<cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Oun Kwon<kwonbbl at gmail.com>
> Cc: Mark Lightman<lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 1:35:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Robinson/Pierpont 2005 Readers-Edition
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Oun Kwon wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mark Lightman<lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>> Sure, I understand that argument.  Textual criticism per se is an off-list
>>> topic, but without getting in to that, all I am saying is the fact that
>>> Robinson's text is easier to read than NA27/UBS 4 may be a good
>>> reason why those learning Greek should read it.
>>>
>>> If I was starting all over again, I would use his text to learn the Greek 
NT.
>>> It's a better piece of literature, if nothing else.
>>>
>>>   Mark L
>>>
>>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I would appreciate if you would give a few examples of the text which
>> got 'smoothing out'.
> Here's one instance of what I think people mean by "smoothing out."
>
> First let's look at the critical text (NA27/UBS4) of Mark 2:22:
> 22 καὶ οὐδεὶς βάλλει οἶνον νέον εἰς ἀσκοὺς παλαιούς· εἰ δὲ μή, ῥήξει ὁ οἶνος
> τοὺς ἀσκοὺς καὶ ὁ οἶνος ἀπόλλυται καὶ οἱ ἀσκοί· ἀλλὰ οἶνον νέον εἰς ἀσκοὺς
> καινούς. [22 KAI OUDEIS BALLEI OINON NEON EIS ASKOUS PALAIOUS· EI DE MH, 
hRHXEI
> hO OINOS TOUS ASKOUS KAI hO OINOS APOLLUTAI KAI hOI ASKOI· ALLA OINON NEON EIS
> ASKOUS KAINOUS.]
>
> Then look at the Majority Text:
> 22 και ουδεις βαλλει οινον νεον εις ασκους παλαιους ει δε μη ρησσει ο οινος ο
> νεος τους ασκους και ο οινος εκχειται και οι ασκοι απολουνται αλλα οινον νεον
> εις ασκους καινους βλητεον. [22 KAI OUDEIS BALLEI OINON NEON EIS ASKOUS 
>PALAIOUS
> EI DE MH hRHSSEI hO OINOS hO NEOS TOUS ASKOUS KAI hO OINOS EKCEITAI KAI hOI
> ASKOI APOLOUNTAI ALLA OINON NEON EIS ASKOUS KAINOUS BLHTEON.]
>
> Where NA27 has ῥήξει ὁ οἶνος τοὺς ἀσκοὺς καὶ ὁ οἶνος ἀπόλλυται καὶ οἱ ἀσκοί
> [hRHXEI hO OINOS TOUS ASKOUS], MT has ρησσει ο οινος ο νεος τους ασκους 
>[hRHSSEI
> O OINOS O NEOS TOUS ASKOUS]. The future-tense verb of the critical text has 
>been
> changed to present-tense in the MT so that the tense of the verbs BALLEI and
> hRHSSEI are coordinated in the MT; also hO OINOS of the critical text becomes 
>hO
> OINOS hO NEOS in NT, making clear that it's the NEW wine that bursts the
> wineskins.
>
> Where NA27 has ὁ οἶνος ἀπόλλυται καὶ οἱ ἀσκοί [hO OINOS APOLLUTAI KAI hOI 
>ASKOI]
> "the wine is wasted and (so are) the wineskins", MT has the clearer 
formulation
> ο οινος εκχειται και οι ασκοι απολουντα [ hO OINOS EKCEITAI KAI hOI ASKOI
> APOLOUNTAI] "the wine spills out and the wineskins will be ruined."
>
> Finally, NA27 in the final clause of verse 22 requires the reader to supply a
> verb: ἀλλὰ οἶνον νέον εἰς ἀσκοὺς καινούς [ALLA OINON NEON EIS ASKOUS KAINOUS]
> "(people/one/they should put) new wine into new wineskins." The MT, however,
> supplies that verb with βλητέον [BLHTEON] "one must/should put."
>
> It's not that NA27/UBS4 is really hard to read, and it could hardly be said 
>that
> the real sense of Mark 2:22 is at all different in the two text-forms -- but
> it's hard to deny that the text of MT leaves less to the imagination of the
> reader.
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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