[B-Greek] John 2:15

Yancy W Smith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Mon Aug 9 16:18:19 EDT 2010


So, this is how I imagine a Tanaitic Messianic rabbi recording a deliberation on this verse: Rabbi Beniansi said: To say "he whipped them" may or may not imply that the whip actually made contact with skin and caused pain. As long as they were driven out by fear of the whip, they were indeed whipped. Since talmid Jochannan ha sheliach says "he made a whip of cords" and "he drove them all out" one may conclude that he whipped them, for "fear has to do with judgment."

Yancy

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2010, at 12:44 PM, "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org> wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- From: <jgibson000 at comcast.net>
> To: "Biblical Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Cc: "Barry" <nebarry at verizon.net>
> Sent: 9. august 2010 16:53
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 2:15
> 
> 
> ...
>>> 2) The question then becomes whether or not τε ... καί, TE...KAI (an unusual construction in John), is exclusive.  I seen no reason that it should be considered so.  It may be read as specifiying constituent elements of the PANTAS by way of emphasis, but that doesn't mean that the money changers are excluded.
>> Not according to Jean Lasserre “Un contresens tenace,” Cahiers de la Réconciliation (October 1967): 3–21  (Englished by John Howard Yoder as "The Whip in the Temple. A Tenacious Misinterpretation",. in Occasional Papers of the Council of Mennonite Seminaries and Institute of Mennonite Studies No. 1, ed.  W. M. Swartley, Elkhart 1981, 35-49), who has examined all of the NT uses of TE KAI and who notes that in 86 of these cases a rendering comparable to "as well as the sheep and the oxen" would be impossible,  in five it would be possible but is not so rendered by translators, and that it is only in John 2:15 that translators so render it.
>> 
>> To my knowledge, both Bultmann and Schnakenburg reject your view, as does G.H.C. MacGreggor (The New Testament Basis of Pacifism),  who each note that the normal sense of TE KAI is to indicate a list, not to continue a series beginning with "them all".
>> 
>> If memory serves,  a full discussion of the grammatical issues involved appears in N. Clayton Croy's  "The Messianic Whippersnapper: Did Jesus Use a Whip on People in the Temple (John 2:15)?",  Journal of Biblical Literature128 (2009)  555-568.
>> 
>> Jeffrey
> 
> Yes, Clayton Croy discusses this in detail and suggests that PANTAS is further described by way of a partitive apposition: both the sheep and the oxen. He denies that Jesus used the whip on the owners/sellers, but assumes that the owners followed the animals. He further assumes without any discussion that Jesus did whip both the sheep and the oxen. He certainly drove them out, but did he whip them? Where does that assumption come from?
> 
> Iver Larsen 
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