[B-Greek] Question on I Timothy 2:1 (also I Timothy 2:9)
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 8 19:26:58 EDT 2010
Hi Oun –
BOULOMAI OUN PROSEUCESQAI TOUS ANDRAS EN PANTI TOPWi EPAIRONTAS hOSIOUS CEIRAS
CWRIS ORGHS KAI DIALOGISMOU hWSAUTWS KAI TAS GUNAIKAS EN KATASTOLHi KOSMIWi,
META AIDOUS KAI SWFROSUNHS, KOSMEIN hEAUTAS, MH EN PLEGMASIN, H CRUSWi, H
MARGARITAIS, H hIMATISMWi POLUTELEI,I Tim. 2:8-9
I am not sure PROSEUCESQAI and KOSMEIN are put in contrast, or if they are, it
necessarily changes the fact that WSAUTWS is referring back to the full thought
contained the phrase preceding the words TOUS ANDRAS in verse 8. The immediate
context is prayer.
I have not completed reading Hoyle so I will not speak concerning the use of
frames, as Louis mentioned in his post, (Hi Louis), but certainly I can say the
context is speaking to the concept of prayer and it seems incongruous to me for
the writer to use hWSAUTWS the way he does in verse 9 without it also including
the thought of prayer put forth in verse 8. The writer desires both men and
women to pray in my opinion.
In Luke 22:20 it seems hWSAUTWS refers back to the two aspects revealed in verse
19, that of *taking* and *giving thanks.* Thanks was given over each cup used in
the Passover, in fact, the third cup was known as the *cup of blessing* (I Cor.
10:16). Therefore, it seems only natural to also include the thought of
*thanksgiving* over the cup along with the concept of * taking* when reading
hWSAUTWS in verse 20.
Another, example where hWSAUTWS seems to include both thoughts revealed in a
previous concept is Matt.25:16-17, where it would be completely appropriate,
IMO, to understand Matt. 25:17 as "In the same manner the one who [had
received] the two talents [went and engaged in business] and gained two more.
Obviously, that is not a strictly literal translation, but I think it perfectly
conveys the full thought given by Matthew’s use of hWSAUTWS.
In any case, it seems in this epistle we have one overriding context, *how to
behave in the household of God,* and many sub-contexts, such as this one in
chapter two – prayer.
As Louis mentions,
<The point of Rhodes blog, is (I think) that context is king. Certain words
are associated with other words, and when they are, you can expect a more
specific meaning associated with a word. In other words, context colors
meaning. Or in his words, the Frame of a dialogue impacts the meaning of the
individual words in the narrative. e.g. τιμης does not just mean "of a price"
<but "of a very high price."
<Simple meaning: Context rules. And if you don't pay attention to context,
you will miss out on the "implied semantics" = specification of the meaning
of a word by the context.>
On the other hand, Louis also wrote –
<So what Greek words do you know
(or think you know) that are dumbed-down? And how do you become aware
that the meaning of the words you think you know are the actual implied
meaning (in context of course)? When are you reading your biases into
Greek and how do you know when you do it?>
Perhaps my own biases are unwittingly coloring my own thoughts on these two
verses and my take on them is mistaken. After all, this really was a
From: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sat, August 7, 2010 7:00:39 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question on I Timothy 2:1 (also I Timothy 2:9)
On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
> (I believe WSAUTWS in verse 9 should be seen as referring back to
> BOULOMAI and also PROSEUCESQAI in verse 8, so that Paul is saying – *In like
> manner I desire the women to pray in proper attire, with modesty and
> discreteness – to adorn themselves, not with braided hair and gold, or pearls
> expensive clothing, but with good works, (which is appropriate to women
> proclaiming piety.*).
> Blue Harris
> P.S. Does anyone also believe that WSAUTWS in I Tim. 2:9 should include
> PROSEUCESQAI of verse 8? It seems a similar passage would be Luke 22:19-20,
> where it seems the hWSAUTWS of verse 20 should not only include LABWN but
> EUCARISTHSAS, so that the verse should read, *And in like manner, after supper
> [he took] the cup, [and gave thanks] saying, etc.*
This is my try:
I'm coping here:
WSAUTWS [KAI] GUNAIKAS
EN KATASTOLH KOSMIW META AIDOUS KAI SWFROSUNHS
MH EN PLEGMASIN KAI CRUSIW H MARGARITAIS H hIMATISMW POLUTELEI
Here what is put in contrast are two verbs ('PROSEUCESQAI' v.8 and
'KOSMEIN' v.9), which are grammatically comparable (except one is
middle and another is active).
Also 1Tm 2:8-9 and Lk 22:19-20 don't seem to be in a comparable
structure. Here we have two agents (Paul-men/women), where as in Lk
it's only one agent (Jesus).
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