[B-Greek] Linguistics without sweat or tears (was "A Semantic Frame in II Cor. 4")

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sun Apr 25 10:02:09 EDT 2010


On Apr 25, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Blue Meeksbay wrote:
> Mark L. wrote
>> This business of frames goes back to at least Elizabethian times:
> 
>>  GUILDENSTERN:  Good my lord, put your discourse into some frame,
> and start not so wildly from my affair."  (Hamlet, III, ii, 295)
>  
>  
> It seems it even goes back further than Shakespeare. Philo wrote:
>  
> We must now examine with accuracy that which we have taken as the subject of our investigation, that we may not be led astray through being deceived by the indistinctness of words and expressions; but that, understanding accurately what it is of which we are speaking, we may *frame* our determinations felicitously. (Quod omnis probus liber sit 1:16)

Did he say "frame"? or ἐφαρμόττωμεν [EFARMOTTWMEN]?

Ἅλις μὲν δὴ τούτων. ἀκριβωτέον δὲ τὸ ζητούμενον, ἵνα μὴ 2 τῇ τῶν ὀνομάτων ἀσαφείᾳ παραγόμενοι πλαζώμεθα, καταλαβόντες δὲ  περὶ οὗ ὁ λόγος τὰς ἀποδείξεις εὐσκόπως ἐφαρμόττωμεν.
[hALIS MEN DH TOUTWN. AKRIBWTEON DE TO ZHTOUMENON, hINA MH 2 THi TWN ONOMATWN ASAFEIAi PARAGOMENOI PLAZWMEQA, KATALABONTES DE  PERI hOU hO LOGOS TAS APODEIXEIS EUSKOPWS EFARMOTTWMEN.]

> ________________________________
> From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> To: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>; Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sun, April 25, 2010 5:07:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Linguistics without sweat or tears (was "A Semantic Frame in II Cor. 4")
> 
> 
> Carl wrote
> 
> <The remarkable thing, of course, is that Hoyle's methodology can be taken up and employed at once
> without bothering to read Hoyle's treatise.>
> 
> Post-Hoylism is less dependent on Hoyle than neo-Hoylism. The semantic framework that Blue and
> I currently employ lies somewhere in between.
> 
> This business of frames goes back to at least Elizabethian times:
> 
>  GUILDENSTERN:  Good my lord, put your discourse into some frame,
> and start not so wildly from my affair."  (Hamlet, III, ii, 295)
> 
> 
> Mark L
> 
> 
> 
> FWSFOROS MARKOS 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sun, April 25, 2010 4:51:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Linguistics without sweat or tears (was "A Semantic Frame in II Cor. 4")
> 
> On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:27 PM, Blue Meeksbay wrote:
>> How did you know?
> 
> The remarkable thing, of course, is that Hoyle's methodology can be taken up and employed at once
> without bothering to read Hoyle's treatise. This is easier than Wallace and Smyth put together!
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>> To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>; Alex Poulos <apviper at gmail.com>
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 6:20:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Semantic Frame in II Cor. 4 (was PERIFRONTES in 2 Cor 4:10 (or, prepositions and, compounds)
>> 
>> 
>> Blue wrote:
>> 
>> <I wonder if perhaps there might be another semantic frame...
>> Since Paul uses PARADIDOMEQA in verse 11, perhaps he is giving us a frame not of a procession through pagan streets,
>>   but a procession through the streets of Jerusalem – the *carrying* of the cross by Jesus to his crucifixion, the one who was *delivered* up to die.>
>> 
>> I agree with Blue here.  The reference to the veil in verse 3 starts the Jewish frame.  The LXX quote in v. 13
>> shows that the Jewish frame is still activated.  While it is possible that we have here a mid-frame scenario switch to pagan
>> imagery, it is more likely that Jewish imagery is still in effect.  Blue's take reminds me of the theory that James 1:25,
>> ο δε παρακυψας εις νομον τελειον τον ελευθεριας (hO DE PARAKUYAS EIS NOMON TELEION TON THS ELEUQERIAS) picks up
>> on the image of stooping over the Torah.
>> 
>> Blue wrote:
>> 
>> <(By the way Mark, I love your posts. I do not think they need to be shorter, but, indeed should be longer!).>
>> 
>> Thanks, Blue.  Did my mother put you up to this?  :)  
>> Mark L
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> FWSFOROS MARKOS 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>> To: Alex Poulos <apviper at gmail.com>
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Sat, April 24, 2010 5:35:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Semantic Frame in II Cor. 4 (was PERIFRONTES in 2 Cor 4:10 (or, prepositions and, compounds)
>> 
>> I wonder if perhaps there might be another semantic frame, (that is, if, as Paul Toseland also stated, I am understanding the term correctly. I am like Mark. If I had another forty years on this earth I would love to learn everything Elizabeth, Yancy and Don have been discussing, but since I do not believe I have that many years, I am more inclined to try to increase my fluency). (By the way Mark, I love your posts. I do not think they need to be shorter, but, indeed should be longer!). (Oh, and BTW, I like my mayonnaise on tomatoes.)
>>   
>> In any case, if we loosely connect the participles in verses 8-10a with KHRUSSOMENin verse 5, I could see your point about a procession, (in this case, verse 6 and 7 may be a parenthesis). However, if we loosely connect them with PARADIDOMEQA in verse 11, I think we come up with a different frame.
>>   
>> Some months ago when we were discussing II Cor. 3, I mentioned that I thought Paul was revealing to us that the later practice of *carrying about* the Torah Scroll in the synagogue service might , indeed,  have been a first century practice, and may have been what he was referring to in II Cor. 3: 14-15.  Those who held to the Old Covenant *carried* about the symbol of the Old Covenant, the Torah scroll against their breasts or hearts. 
>>   
>> Perhaps what Paul is referring to in the passage before us is that as servants of the New Covenant, they are not *carrying about* the old symbol – Moses, symbolized by the Torah Scroll,  but are *carrying about* in their own body the symbol of the New Covenant – the death of Jesus, symbolized by the cross. In other words, they are not carrying about a Torah Scroll, but they are carrying about a cross!
>>   
>> Since Paul uses PARADIDOMEQA in verse 11, perhaps he is giving us a frame not of a procession through pagan streets, but a procession through the streets of Jerusalem – the *carrying* of the cross by Jesus to his crucifixion, the one who was *delivered* up to die. 
>>   
>> LEGWN TON hUION TOU ANQRWPOU hOTI DEI  *PARADOQHNAI*  EIS CEIRAS ANQRWPWN hAMARTWLWN KAI STAURWQHNAI KAI THi TRITHi hHMERAi ANASTHNAI.  Luke 24:7
>>   
>> If I understand the term “semantic frame” correctly, (and I am sure I will be told if I do not), the word  PARADIDOMEQA would be the *activating* word  that invokes the imagery of the passion of Christ. 
>>   
>> In other words, Paul is saying, as his servants we are to “take up our cross, deny our self, and follow in his footsteps (Matt. 16:24). Carrying about the death of Jesus in his body was another way of saying he was always being put into situations where he was delivered up to die, both figuratively and literally. 
>>   
>> Carl’s comparison to Phil 3 also gives us this imagery, especially when Paul says,the following in Phil. 3:10-11. TOU GNWNAI AUTON KAI THN DUNAMIN THS ANASTASEWS AUTOU KAI THN KOINWNIAN TWN PAQHMATWN AUTOU, SUMMORFIZOMENOS TWi QANATWi AUTOU, EI PWS KATANTHSW EIS THN EXANASTASIN THN EK NEKRWN.
>>   
>> Anyway, this was just a thought.  Here is another thought. Does one frame necessarily exclude the other? Could not Paul be intending to give the hearer or reader both imageries – the imagery of II Cor. 2:14 activated byQRIAMBEUONTI and the imagery of II Cor. 3:11 activated by PARADIDOMEQA? 
>>   
>> Sincerely,
>> Blue Harris

You mean to say that Shakespeare's frame 



Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)






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