[B-Greek] Where does meaning come from?

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Thu Apr 1 15:25:44 EDT 2010


Don wrote:
 
<I cringe whenever I hear, "The original author did not mean
 this or that." We assume what the original author "meant"
 based on what we feel he should or must mean. I.e. we
disagree with the author's statement. This is tricky even
 in modern communication, where we often have the opportunity 
to question the author and hopefully correct any misunderstanding;
 it is far more so when we have only the written text of an author.>
 
after Eric had written
 
<Communication, including verbal and nonverbal, is a stimulus for inducing certain responses (cognitive, emotional, etc.) in the recipient.>
 
Don has a point here.  Eric, since we usually don't know anything
about what "response" a writer intended to "stimulate," how can
this criteria tell us anything about where meaning comes from?

Mark L


FWSFOROS MARKOS

--- On Thu, 4/1/10, drdwilkins at verizon.net <drdwilkins at verizon.net> wrote:


From: drdwilkins at verizon.net <drdwilkins at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Re: [B-Greek] Where does meaning come from?
To: nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com
Cc: lightmanmark at yahoo.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org, yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 12:56 PM


In view of Carl's warning, I'm deleting most of Nikolaos' original message below while also focusing on a particular point. Not everyone sees everything the same way. I cringe whenever I hear, "The original author did not mean this or that." We assume what the original author "meant" based on what we feel he should or must mean. I.e. we disagree with the author's statement. This is tricky even in modern communication, where we often have the opportunity to question the author and hopefully correct any misunderstanding; it is far more so when we have only the written text of an author. It may be permissible exegesis when a statement defies all reason and is therefore assumed to be exaggeration, but I think caution is always wise.

One example: Jesus's "do not resist an evil person" in Matt. 5:39. A good friend of mine applied this to the case of a woman threatened with rape. He felt certain that Jesus was not saying "Don't defend yourself", therefore he said that Jesus obviously means do not RETALIATE. I tried without much success to convince him that the Greek means "resist," and in fact there is another word for "retaliate" that Jesus/Matthew could have used. But to him "resist" defied common sense, so "retaliate" had to be correct.

Don Wilkins

Apr 1, 2010 09:25:21 AM, nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com wrote:

===========================================



1 Τιμ 6:10
ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστιν ἡ φιλαργυρία,
ἧς τινες ὀρεγόμενοι ἀπεπλανήθησαν ἀπὸ τῆς πίστεως καὶ ἑαυτοὺς
περιέπειραν ὀδύναις πολλαῖς.
[ hRIZA GAR PANTWN TWN KAKWN ESTIN hH FILARGURIA,
hHS TINES OREGOMENOI APEPLANHQHSAN APO THS PISTEWS
KAI hEAUTOUS PERIEPEIRAN ODUNAS POLLAIS ]
Judas the one who betrayed Christ is one example of the love for money.
Mark 10:25, Luke 12, Luke 16 provide additional evidence, so it is not
just st. Paul only.

Greek is a very specific language, and for this is the language of
philosophy and theology.

Linguistics is a modern science, based not in Greek but in English.
In Greek we have clarity, and whenever we have διφορούμενον [DIFOROUMENON]
it is because intentionally we want to have it.
Biblical Greek is crystal clear.
There is no space to infer differently from what it is said.

...
-- 
Nikolaos Adamou, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Business Management
CUNY/BMCC




> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 04:13:48 -0700
> From: lightmanmark at yahoo.com
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Where does meaning come from?
> 
>   "every sort of evil" it still constitutes an exaggeration.
>  No problem there, the point would be, "many sorts of evil."
>  So I will engage in a bit of exaggeration. Everyone reads
>  Paul as if he didn't exaggerate.>
>  
> Yancy, if I have told you this once, I have told you
> this a million times:  Stop exaggerating!    :)
> 
> 
> Mark L
> 
> 
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
> 
> --- On Thu, 4/1/10, yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net 
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Where does meaning come from?
> To: "greek B-Greek" 
> Date: Thursday, April 1, 2010, 5:07 AM
> 
> 
> Even if the linguistic meaning of Paul's statement were "every sort of evil" it still constitutes an exaggeration. No problem there, the point would be, "many sorts of evil." So I will engage in a bit of exaggeration. Everyone reads Paul as if he didn't exaggerate.
> 
> Yancy Smith, PhD
> yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
> Y.W.Smith at tcu.edu
> yancy at wbtc.com
> 5636 Wedgworth Road
> Fort Worth, TX 76133
> 817-361-7565
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 1, 2010, at 3:10 AM, Vasileios Tsialas wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> From: iver_larsen at sil.org
> >> To: yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 09:05:57 +0300
> >> Subject: [B-Greek] Where does meaning come from?
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: 
> >> To: "greek B-Greek" 
> >> Sent: 1. april 2010 07:21
> >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] question regarding 1 Tim 6:10
> >> 
> >> 
> > [...]
> >>> Mark is correct to infer that Paul's meaning 
> >>> cannot possibly be that the love of money is actually the root of 100% all 
> >>> evils, despite the fact that the linguistic meaning is precisely that. But we 
> >>> must allow Paul the freedom we give ourselves, to quote and shape and 
> >>> exaggerate and skew linguistic and speaker meaning.
> >>> 
> >>> The first two paragraphs above are adapted from Sperber and Wilson, Relevance: 
> >>> Communication and Cognition.
> >>> 
> >>> Yancy Smith, PhD
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > Even though I agree with the spirit of thought, I wouldn't agree that here Paul says that, "love of money is actually THE root of 100% ALL evils". Ρίζα RIZA is unarticulated and παντων PANTWN can mean, instead of "all", "every short of". The meanning of this phrase, as long as I understand it in Greek, is: "Love of money causes every short of evils", which is not really an exaggeration.
> > Vasileios Tsialas
> > Athens, Greece                           
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