[B-Greek] Muraoka's Lexicon (off-list)

Michael Aubrey mga318 at yahoo.com
Wed Oct 28 00:42:38 EDT 2009


It's not worth posting to the list, but I just wanted to say that I was never trying to argue against you on that one. All I was doing was attempting to provide additional info from another source.

As for your point, I agree with it and have agreed with it for several years now.

Mike



________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
To: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
Cc: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 9:09:17 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Muraoka's Lexicon (was: MISEW in Lk 14:26) (corrected)

Michael,
As I have said repeatedly, the issue I raised is not about what MISEW  
means or does not mean.  Rather, I questioned whether MISEW in Gen  
29:31 can be said to have produced a NEW sense (as George implied). My  
question therefore has to do with lexicographical methodology as it  
applies to a TRANSLATED text.  Simply put, does the lexicographical  
principle that context determines meaning apply to the LXX as it  
applies to non-translation literature? The burden of my posts was that it  
does not. For further argumentation please see "Context is King, or Is  
It" at http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm/
Al



On Oct 27, 2009, at 10:51 PM, Michael Aubrey wrote:

Al
>
>For sense #2, I'd say that fact that he refers to two NT texts as collaboration is a start for evidence, though FYI, I wasn't arguing for one view or the other, I just wanted to provide some info on what Muraoka has done.
>
>Also, I think, George's reference to MM a couple posts back is rather relevant to the question of the validity of a second sense for the word.
>
>Regarding his lexicon in general, you're right, perhaps he hasn't distanced himself enough. But even still, the very fact that he uses ***contemporary*** English for his ***definitions*** is significant enough for me (e.g. KATAPELMATOW [OMAI in LEH] -- Joshua 9:5), where both LEH & LSJ provide something like, "cobbled" or clouted." "Cobbled" is relatively understandable in context, though its definitely no longer used. The noun "cobbler" is probably the most recently used word, though even it is quite archaic. But GELS' "to mend with a patch" goes so very much farther in making the text understandable without having to pull out my copy of the OED to look up 19th century words that no longer exist.
>
>Mike Aubrey
>http://evepheso.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>To: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
>Cc: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 1:22:35 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] MISEW in Lk 14:26
>
>As I have noted, what is at issue is not the meaning of MISEW per se,  
>but rather whether attestation in translated literature can be cited  
>as evidence for new meanings of old words. Muraoka may be right but if  
>he is, one would like some  corroborating  evidence from non- 
>translation literature. One the weaknesses of Muraoka's Lexicon is,  
>however, that such evidence is seldom given, thereby raising the  
>question whether he has removed himself far enough from LSJs approach  
>to the LXX. For a critique of Muraoka's approach see my Response to  
>Muraoka at http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm/, especially section  
>3.
>Al
>On Oct 27, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Michael Aubrey wrote:
>
>> Muraoka places Gen 29:31 in his sense #1:
>>
>> "to have strong dis like of
>> ...
>> pass. μισεῖται (MISEITAI) 'is disliked' Ge 29.31"
>>
>> That's a direct quote - with transliteration added in.
>>
>> With
>> that said, Muraoka does have a second sense as well: "to neglect to
>> further the interests of." He cites: Ps 10.5, Pr 13.24 as well as Mt
>> 6:24 & John 12:25.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>> To: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 11:15:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] MISEW in Lk 14:26
>>
>>
>> On Oct 27, 2009, at 11:53 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 27, 2009, at 8:47 AM, Aaron Marshall wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hence, MISEW does not mean "to love less"
>>>
>>> J. W. WEVERS, Noteson the Greek Text of Genesis (SBLSCS 35; Atlanta
>>> 1993) p. 471
>>>
>>> "So MISEITAI is intended as 'less loved'."
>> Wevers is here going beyond what the text can bear. MISEW is used not
>> to balance with v. 30 but because the source text has SN). Whatever
>> balancing occurs occurs in the Hebrew text. Whether it occurs in the
>> Greek text as well hinges on what MISEW can mean in common usage. But
>> to posit a new sense to fit Gen 29:31 clearly will not. The most one
>> can do is to invoke the distinction between "reference" and "sense,"
>> i.e. between exegesis and lexicography. While in this specific passage
>> one might suggest that v.30 may soften the force of MISEW in v. 31,
>> MISEW in v. 31 is not thereby given a new sense.
>> More to the point than Wevers is NETS: "Now when the Lord saw that
>> Leia was hated." Lastly, it bears noting that v. 30 reads: (HGAPHSEN
>> DE RAXHL) MALLON H (LEIAN). While this might be glossed as "He loved
>> Rachel MORE THAN Leia" (so NETS) it might equally well be rendered as
>> "He loved Rachel RATHER THAN Leia."
>> Al
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Elizabeth Kline
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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>>>
>>
>>>> Albert Pietersma PhD
>> 21 Cross Street,
>> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/%7Epietersm
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>
>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>21 Cross Street,
>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
>
>
>

—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street, 
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm 



      


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