[B-Greek] Muraoka's Lexicon (was: MISEW in Lk 14:26)

Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Wed Oct 28 00:01:42 EDT 2009


Michael,
As I have said repeatedly, the issue I raised is not about what MISEW  
means or does not mean.  Rather, I questioned whether  MISEW in Gen  
29:31 can be said to have produced a NEW sense (as George implied). My  
question therefore has to do with lexicographical methodology as it  
applies to a TRANSLATED text.  Simply put, does the lexicographical  
principle that context determines meaning apply to the LXX as it  
applies to non-translation literature? The burden of posts was that it  
does not. For further argumentation please see "Context is King, or Is  
It" at http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm/
Al
On Oct 27, 2009, at 10:51 PM, Michael Aubrey wrote:

> Al
>
> For sense #2, I'd say that fact that he refers to two NT texts as  
> collaboration is a start for evidence, though FYI, I wasn't arguing  
> for one view or the other, I just wanted to provide some info on  
> what Muraoka has done.
>
> Also, I think, George's reference to MM a couple posts back is  
> rather relevant to the question of the validity of a second sense  
> for the word.
>
> Regarding his lexicon in general, you're right, perhaps he hasn't  
> distanced himself enough. But even still, the very fact that he uses  
> ***contemporary*** English for his ***definitions*** is significant  
> enough for me (e.g. KATAPELMATOW [OMAI in LEH] -- Joshua 9:5), where  
> both LEH & LSJ provide something like, "cobbled" or clouted."  
> "Cobbled" is relatively understandable in context, though its  
> definitely no longer used. The noun "cobbler" is probably the most  
> recently used word, though even it is quite archaic. But GELS' "to  
> mend with a patch" goes so very much farther in making the text  
> understandable without having to pull out my copy of the OED to look  
> up 19th century words that no longer exist.
>
> Mike Aubrey
> http://evepheso.wordpress.com
>
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> To: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 1:22:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] MISEW in Lk 14:26
>
> As I have noted, what is at issue is not the meaning of MISEW per se,
> but rather whether attestation in translated literature can be cited
> as evidence for new meanings of old words. Muraoka may be right but if
> he is, one would like some  corroborating  evidence from non-
> translation literature. One the weaknesses of Muraoka's Lexicon is,
> however, that such evidence is seldom given, thereby raising the
> question whether he has removed himself far enough from LSJs approach
> to the LXX. For a critique of Muraoka's approach see my Response to
> Muraoka at http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm/, especially section
> 3.
> Al
> On Oct 27, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Michael Aubrey wrote:
>
> > Muraoka places Gen 29:31 in his sense #1:
> >
> > "to have strong dis like of
> > ...
> > pass. μισεῖται (MISEITAI) 'is disliked' Ge 29.31"
> >
> > That's a direct quote - with transliteration added in.
> >
> > With
> > that said, Muraoka does have a second sense as well: "to neglect to
> > further the interests of." He cites: Ps 10.5, Pr 13.24 as well as Mt
> > 6:24 & John 12:25.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> > To: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
> > Cc: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 11:15:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] MISEW in Lk 14:26
> >
> >
> > On Oct 27, 2009, at 11:53 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Oct 27, 2009, at 8:47 AM, Aaron Marshall wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hence, MISEW does not mean "to love less"
> >>
> >> J. W. WEVERS, Noteson the Greek Text of Genesis (SBLSCS 35; Atlanta
> >> 1993) p. 471
> >>
> >> "So MISEITAI is intended as 'less loved'."
> > Wevers is here going beyond what the text can bear. MISEW is used  
> not
> > to balance with v. 30 but because the source text has SN). Whatever
> > balancing occurs occurs in the Hebrew text. Whether it occurs in the
> > Greek text as well hinges on what MISEW can mean in common usage.  
> But
> > to posit a new sense to fit Gen 29:31 clearly will not. The most one
> > can do is to invoke the distinction between "reference" and "sense,"
> > i.e. between exegesis and lexicography. While in this specific  
> passage
> > one might suggest that v.30 may soften the force of MISEW in v. 31,
> > MISEW in v. 31 is not thereby given a new sense.
> > More to the point than Wevers is NETS: "Now when the Lord saw that
> > Leia was hated." Lastly, it bears noting that v. 30 reads: (HGAPHSEN
> > DE RAXHL) MALLON H (LEIAN). While this might be glossed as "He loved
> > Rachel MORE THAN Leia" (so NETS) it might equally well be rendered  
> as
> > "He loved Rachel RATHER THAN Leia."
> > Al
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Elizabeth Kline
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> >> B-Greek mailing list
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> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >>
> >
> > —
> > Albert Pietersma PhD
> > 21 Cross Street,
> > Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
> > Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> > Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
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> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>> Albert Pietersma PhD
> 21 Cross Street,
> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
>
>

—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm




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