[B-Greek] MISEW in Lk 14:26

Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Tue Oct 27 09:06:11 EDT 2009


On Oct 27, 2009, at 1:09 AM, George F Somsel wrote:

> No, there is no semantic transfer; however, the translator used the  
> words he used for a reason -- which is to say that HE thought them  
> appropriate.
Quite so. He used MISEW because his source text had NS). Whether or  
not MISEW is appropriate to the Greek context in which it appears is  
separate and secondary issue. As a result, it cannot be assumed that  
Gen 29:31 produces a new sense of MISEW. MISEW in Gen 29:31 simply  
means what it can mean in the living language.
> Sometimes a translator can even be in error.  That doesn't change  
> the fact that the translator had some concept in mind when he made  
> his translation.
Quite so. MISEW was deemed an appropriate translation equivalent for  
NS). Lexicography, however, ought scarcely be based on translation  
equivalency, but rather on straightforward use of language.
>   I might also cite Moulton & Milligan.
I have no issue with MM, since MM does not claim that, based on Gen  
29:31, MISEW must be accorded a new sense. Again, MISEW in Gen 29:31  
falls within its normal semantic range. Just what that range is may be  
of interest, but, again, that is a separate issue.
Enough said, methinks.
Al
>
>
>
> which survives in MGr μισῶ MISW, is not so common in our sources  
> as we might have expected, but cf. PSI III. 15837(iii/a.d.?)  
> βαρυόσμους μεισουμένους ὑπὸ τῶν  
> ἀ[σ]τείων γυναικῶν BARUOSMOUS MESOUMENOUS hUPO TWN  
> A[S]TEIWN GUNAIKWN, “evil-smelling persons hated by refined  
> women,” ib.I. 4122(iv/a.d.) ἅπερ ἡ φύσις μεισῖ  
> hAPER hH FUSIS MEISI, P Oxy VI. 90217(c.a.d.465) μισοῦσειν  
> γὰρ οἱ νόμοι τοὺς τὰ ἄδικα  
> διαπραττομέν[ο]υς MISOUSEIN GAR hOI NOMOI TOUS TA  
> ADIKA DIAPRATTOMEN[O]US, “for the perpetrators of injustice are  
> hateful to the laws” (Edd.), and the Christian amulet ib.VIII.  
> 11512(v/a.d.?) φεῦγε π̣ν̣(εῦμ)α̣  
> μεμισιμένον FEUGE PN(EUM)A MEMISMENON  
> (l.μεμισημένον MEMISHMENON). For the subst. μῖσος  
> MISOS cf. Vett. Val. p. 24225ἡ ἐπιστήμη . . ὑπὸ
> τῆς ἀληθείας στηριζομένη τὸ . .  
> μῖσος ἀποδιώξει hH EPISTHMH . . hUPO THS ALHQEIAS  
> STHRIZOMENH TO . . MISOS APODIWCEI, and the quotation from Menander  
> Fragm. p. 187 s.v.κατατίθημι KATATIQHMI. With Menandrea p.  
> 18216θεῖον δὲ μισεῖ μῖσος QEION DE MISEI MISOS,  
> cf. Ps 138 (139):22, where the same cogn. acc. occurs.
>
> Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek  
> Testament. Issued also in eight parts, 1914-1929. (413). London:  
> Hodder and Stoughton.
>  george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>; B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org 
> >
> Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 7:44:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] MISEW in Lk 14:26
>
> So BDAG is not BAGD. Well and good. That does not, however, affect  
> the point at issue: Gen 29.31 cannot be cited as the BASIS for this  
> sense (your #2).  In other words, Gen 29.31 rather than producing a  
> new sense of MISEW (as you imply) simply reflects an established  
> sense of this word.
> Moreover, what Hebrew NS) can mean or cannot mean is quite  
> irrelevant to the meaning of MISEW in Gen 29:31----unless you are  
> suggesting that semantic transfer occurs automatically when Hebrew X  
> is paired with Greek Y.  The latter assumption gave rise to many a  
> "new" meaning for well known Greek words in LSJ. Most of these are  
> absent from Muraoka's Lexicon.
> Al
>
> On Oct 26, 2009, at 9:34 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> If you assume that BAGD is the same as BDAG, you assume  
>> incorrectly.  The entry (without giving all of the details) is as I  
>> presented it.  Gen 29.31 is included under sense #2 in BDAG.   
>> Although I would expect the LXX to more or less reflect the sense  
>> of the MT, I think you have missed something regarding the Hebrew.   
>> The Hebrew states  וַיַּרְא יְהוָה כִּי־ 
>> שְׂנוּאָה,  which would not have simply one sense.  HALOT  
>> states regarding the verb שׂנא that
>>
>> B. not to be able to endure a woman any longer, decrease her  
>> status, see THAT 2:836, see above on
>>
>> I should think that "decrease her status" would correspond fairly  
>> well to the use of μισέω MISEW in Lk 14.26.שנאin EgArm. and  
>> cf. Akk. zêru in the context of family law, see AHw. 1522b, and  
>> also the quotations in CAD Z: 97b, zêru 1.1, including some from  
>> the Laws of Hammurabi: Dt 2213.16 243 Ju 1416 152;  
>> שְׂנוּאָהa woman who has been scorned, decreased in status  
>> Gn 2931.33 Dt 2115.17 Pr 3023 Sir 726, cf. Is 6015 (צִיּוֹן).
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>; B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org 
>> >
>> Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 4:26:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] MISEW in Lk 14:26
>>
>> George,
>> My interest lies in your use of Gen 29:31. Assuming that BDAG is  
>> the same as BAGD (1979), I don't see that it delineate the two  
>> semantic components in the manner that you suggest; more  
>> importantly, however, the entry on MISEW does not seem to make any  
>> reference to Gen 29:31, as far as I can tell. Most importantly, to  
>> delineate a distinctive semantic component on the basis of  
>> attestation in a translated document (as you appear to suggest)  
>> would seem to unwarranted from a lexicographical perspective. After  
>> all, MISEW in Genesis simply reflects SN) in the source text. No  
>> indication, therefore, of a "new" meaning.
>> Al
>> On Oct 26, 2009, at 4:36 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>>> εἴ τις ἔρχεται πρός με καὶ οὐ  
>>> μισεῖ τὸν πατέρα ἑαυτοῦ καὶ τὴν  
>>> μητέρα καὶ τὴν γυναῖκα καὶ τὰ  
>>> τέκνα καὶ τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς καὶ τὰς  
>>> ἀδελφὰς ἔτι τε καὶ τὴν ψυχὴν  
>>> ἑαυτοῦ, οὐ δύναται εἶναί μου  
>>> μαθητής.
>>> EI TIS ERXETAI PROS ME KAI OU MISEI TON PATERA hAUTOU KAI THN  
>>> MHTERA KAI THN GUNAIKA KAI TA TEKNA KAI TOUS ADELFOUS KAI TAS  
>>> ADELFAS ETI TE KAI THN YUXHN hEAUTOU, OU DUNATAI EINAI MOU MAQHTHS
>>>
>>> For μισέω MISEW BDAG gives two meanings:
>>>
>>> ①to have a strong aversion to,hate, detest  and
>>> ②to be disinclined to,disfavor, disregardin contrast to  
>>> preferential treatment
>>>
>>>
>>> Under the 2nd meaning it cites Gen 29.31 which appears interesting
>>>
>>> Ἰδὼν δὲ κύριος ὅτι μισεῖται Λεια,  
>>> ἤνοιξεν τὴν μήτραν αὐτῆς, Ραχηλ δὲ  
>>> ἦν στεῖρα.
>>> IDWN DE KURIOS hOTI MISEITAI LEIA, HNOICEN THN MHTRAN AUTHS, RAXHL  
>>> DE HN STEIRA
>>>
>>> While it is entirely possible that actual hatred was involved, I  
>>> find that unlikely in view of the fact that the greater number of  
>>> tribes were Leah tribes.
>>>
>>>   george
>>> gfsomsel
>>>
>>>
>>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>> defend the truth till death.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Jan Hus
>>> _________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> To: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 1:02:54 PM
>>> Subject: [B-Greek] MISEW in Lk 14:26
>>>
>>> Moderator's note: I don't know why this didn't come through  
>>> properly,
>>> but the text was sifted out of the incoming message, so I am sending
>>> on to the list the text I saw and forwarding a copy of this to
>>> Antonio. [CWC]
>>> =====
>>> Forwarded for: "Antonio Lordelo" <antoniolordelo at lycos.com>
>>> Date: October 26, 2009 3:28:00 PM EDT
>>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Subject: MISEO
>>>
>>>
>>> Ok. Let me try again,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-
>>> microsoft-com:office:office" />
>>>
>>> I am doing a study on Luke 14:26 and I had a question about MISEO.
>>> Strongs gives the meaning as; possibly by extension to love less.
>>> My 1st questions is, what is it about the extension that leads to
>>> love less? and 2nd what possible greek word could be used by Luke
>>> instead of MISEO?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Antonio
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>>
>>>> Albert Pietersma PhD
>> 21 Cross Street,
>> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>> Albert Pietersma PhD
> 21 Cross Street,
> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
>
>
>

—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm




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