[B-Greek] Rom 10:3

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Mon Oct 12 19:39:46 EDT 2009


On Oct 12, 2009, at 7:29 PM, John Wilking wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I'm quite well aware of it's proposed meaning.  I asked that with  
> Trevor Jenkins comments in mind.  As you probably remember he  
> responded to this thread with the proposition that the transitive  
> form of hISTHMI often means "to fulfill".  Then I noticed the  
> variant reading and then thought that he just might be right.  It  
> was just an idea, sorry.

I think you must be confounding B-Greek with some other discussion  
list. Trevor Jenkins has not been active on this list for many years.


> --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
> To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 4:38 PM
>
>
> On Oct 12, 2009, at 3:41 PM, John Wilking wrote:
>
>> Carl,
>>
>> I just noticed the first textual variant for STHSHTE in Mk 7:9 is  
>> THRHSHTE.  Are you aware of any evidence that would indicate  
>> whether this is
> somewhat synonymous with
> hISTHMI or possibly just a different idea?
>
> No, not really; you really don't know Greek, do you? THREIN means  
> "keep" or "observe" or "abide by" and is most commonly used with  
> something like "commandments" (ENTOLAS) as its object.
>
>
>> --- On Mon, 10/12/09, John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
>> To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 12:08 PM
>>
>>
>> Carl,
>>
>> A
> difficulty with #3 is that it has a mix of different sense  
> meanings.  Hb 10:9 looks like a parallel, TOTE EIRHKEN, IDOU hHKW  
> TOU POIHSAI TO QELHMA SOU. ANAIPEI TO PRWTON hINA TO DEUTERON  
> STHSHi, in that DEUTERON seems to be a reference to the abstract  
> noun phrase TO QELHMA SOU, just as Rom 10:3 joins STHSAI with the  
> abstract THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN.  An added benefit is that it  
> provides us with a possible antonym, AVAIREW.
>>
>> However, Ac 7:60, KURIE, MH STHSHiS AUTOIS TAUTHN THN hAMAPTIAN,  
>> doesn't seem to have the same sense, possibly due to the presence  
>> of AUTOIS.
>>
>> Your example of Mk 7:9, though it is under #4 in BDAG, also seems  
>> to be a good equivalent since it joins a similar kind of noun, THN  
>> PARADOSIN hUMWN, to STHSHTE.
>>
>> John
>>
>> --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>
> wrote:
>>
>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
>> To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 8:52 PM
>>
>>
>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 8:50 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 7:19 PM, John Wilking wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
>>>> To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
>>>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Date: Sunday, October 11,
> 2009, 12:10 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:05 AM, John Wilking wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm trying to make sense of KAI THN IDIAN ZHTOUNTES STHSAI.  If we
>>>>> pick up DIKAIOSUNHN from the previous clause we are left with
>>>>> STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN.  Does something like this occur
>>>>> elsewhere?
>>>>
>>>> The
> full text: Rom. 10:3 ἀγνοοῦντες γὰρ τὴν
>>>> τοῦ θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην καὶ τὴν  
>>>> ἰδίαν
>>>> [δικαιοσύνην] ζητοῦντες στῆσαι, τῇ
>>>> δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ
>> οὐχ
>>>> ὑπετάγησαν. [AGNOOUNTES GAR THN TOU QEOU DIKAIOSUNHN KAI
>>>> THN IDIAN [DIKAIOSUNHN] ZHTOUNTES STHSAI, THi DIKAIOSUNHi TOU QEOU
>>>> OUC hUPETAGHSAN. ]
>>>>
>>>> It's not altogether clear what it is you are asking. Is it, "What
>>>> does STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN mean?" I'd say that the sense is
>>>> something like "set up their own notion of what is fair" or "set up
>>>> their own notion of what is right." Paul Tillich once suggested a
>>>> trichotomy of "autonomy," "heteronomy," and "theonomy." In terms of
>>>>
> that
>>>> STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN might be equivalent to Tillich's term
>>>> "autonomy," which I take to mean observance of principles that one
>>>> chooses for him or herself rather than abiding by principles
>>>> proposed by God.
>>>>
>>>> The nearest equivalent
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> JCW  Or instances of similar structure that use different abstract
>>>> nouns as a way of getting a handle on the semantics of the verb
>>>> hISTHMI.  For example, does something like STHSAI THN IDIAN KPISIN
>>>> occur anywhere?
>>>
>>> There is no other instance than the text I cited, Mark 7:9. As for
>>> STHSAI, I think that BDAG s.v. hISTHMI #2 is right on target here:
>>
>> That should be BDAG s.v. hISTHMI #3
>>
>>> this is a figurative extension of the literal sense,
> "cause to be in a
>>> place or position."
>>>
>>>> to the phrase in question that I find in the GNT is Mark 7:9  
>>>> καὶ
>>>> ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· καλῶς ἀθετεῖτε  
>>>> τὴν
>>>> ἐντολὴν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα τὴν
>>>> παράδοσιν ὑμῶν στήσητε. [KAI ELEGEN AUTOIS·
>>>> KALWS AQETEITE THN ENTOLHN TOU QEOU, hINA THN PARADOSIN
>> hUMWN
>>>> STHSHTE. ], something like, "You've got a neat way of nullifying
>>>> God's commandment so as to put your own tradition in place."
>>>
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>
>>>
>>>
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> list
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
>
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