[B-Greek] Rom 10:3

John Wilking jcwilking at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 12 19:29:43 EDT 2009


Carl,

I'm quite well aware of it's proposed meaning.  I asked that with Trevor Jenkins comments in mind.  As you probably remember he responded to this thread with the proposition that the transitive form of hISTHMI often means "to fulfill".  Then I noticed the variant reading and then thought that he just might be right.  It was just an idea, sorry.

John



--- On Mon, 10/12/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:

From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 4:38 PM


On Oct 12, 2009, at 3:41 PM, John Wilking wrote:

> Carl,
> 
> I just noticed the first textual variant for STHSHTE in Mk 7:9 is THRHSHTE.  Are you aware of any evidence that would indicate whether this is
 somewhat synonymous with
 hISTHMI or possibly just a different idea?

No, not really; you really don't know Greek, do you? THREIN means "keep" or "observe" or "abide by" and is most commonly used with something like "commandments" (ENTOLAS) as its object.


> --- On Mon, 10/12/09, John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
> To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 12:08 PM
> 
> 
> Carl,
> 
> A
 difficulty with #3 is that it has a mix of different sense meanings.  Hb 10:9 looks like a parallel, TOTE EIRHKEN, IDOU hHKW TOU POIHSAI TO QELHMA SOU. ANAIPEI TO PRWTON hINA TO DEUTERON STHSHi, in that DEUTERON seems to be a reference to the abstract noun phrase TO QELHMA SOU, just as Rom 10:3 joins STHSAI with the abstract THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN.  An added benefit is that it provides us with a possible antonym, AVAIREW.
> 
> However, Ac 7:60, KURIE, MH STHSHiS AUTOIS TAUTHN THN hAMAPTIAN, doesn't seem to have the same sense, possibly due to the presence of AUTOIS.
> 
> Your example of Mk 7:9, though it is under #4 in BDAG, also seems to be a good equivalent since it joins a similar kind of noun, THN PARADOSIN hUMWN, to STHSHTE.
> 
> John
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>
 wrote:
> 
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
> To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 8:52 PM
> 
> 
> On Oct 11, 2009, at 8:50 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 7:19 PM, John Wilking wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
>>> To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Date: Sunday, October 11,
 2009, 12:10 PM
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:05 AM, John Wilking wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I'm trying to make sense of KAI THN IDIAN ZHTOUNTES STHSAI.  If we
>>>> pick up DIKAIOSUNHN from the previous clause we are left with
>>>> STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN.  Does something like this occur
>>>> elsewhere?
>>> 
>>> The
 full text: Rom. 10:3 ἀγνοοῦντες γὰρ τὴν
>>> τοῦ θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην καὶ τὴν ἰδίαν
>>> [δικαιοσύνην] ζητοῦντες στῆσαι, τῇ
>>> δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ
> οὐχ
>>> ὑπετάγησαν. [AGNOOUNTES GAR THN TOU QEOU DIKAIOSUNHN KAI
>>> THN IDIAN [DIKAIOSUNHN] ZHTOUNTES STHSAI, THi DIKAIOSUNHi TOU QEOU
>>> OUC hUPETAGHSAN. ]
>>> 
>>> It's not altogether clear what it is you are asking. Is it, "What
>>> does STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN mean?" I'd say that the sense is
>>> something like "set up their own notion of what is fair" or "set up
>>> their own notion of what is right." Paul Tillich once suggested a
>>> trichotomy of "autonomy," "heteronomy," and "theonomy." In terms of
>>>
 that
>>> STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN might be equivalent to Tillich's term
>>> "autonomy," which I take to mean observance of principles that one
>>> chooses for him or herself rather than abiding by principles
>>> proposed by God.
>>> 
>>> The nearest equivalent
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> JCW  Or instances of similar structure that use different abstract
>>> nouns as a way of getting a handle on the semantics of the verb
>>> hISTHMI.  For example, does something like STHSAI THN IDIAN KPISIN
>>> occur anywhere?
>> 
>> There is no other instance than the text I cited, Mark 7:9. As for
>> STHSAI, I think that BDAG s.v. hISTHMI #2 is right on target here:
> 
> That should be BDAG s.v. hISTHMI #3
> 
>> this is a figurative extension of the literal sense,
 "cause to be in a
>> place or position."
>> 
>>> to the phrase in question that I find in the GNT is Mark 7:9 καὶ
>>> ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· καλῶς ἀθετεῖτε τὴν
>>> ἐντολὴν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα τὴν
>>> παράδοσιν ὑμῶν στήσητε. [KAI ELEGEN AUTOIS·
>>> KALWS AQETEITE THN ENTOLHN TOU QEOU, hINA THN PARADOSIN
> hUMWN
>>> STHSHTE. ], something like, "You've got a neat way of nullifying
>>> God's commandment so as to put your own tradition in place."
>> 
>> 
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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