[B-Greek] Rom 10:3

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Mon Oct 12 16:38:30 EDT 2009


On Oct 12, 2009, at 3:41 PM, John Wilking wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I just noticed the first textual variant for STHSHTE in Mk 7:9 is  
> THRHSHTE.  Are you aware of any evidence that would indicate whether  
> this is somewhat synonymous with hISTHMI or possibly just a  
> different idea?

No, not really; you really don't know Greek, do you? THREIN means  
"keep" or "observe" or "abide by" and is most commonly used with  
something like "commandments" (ENTOLAS) as its object.


> --- On Mon, 10/12/09, John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
> To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 12:08 PM
>
>
> Carl,
>
> A difficulty with #3 is that it has a mix of different sense  
> meanings.  Hb 10:9 looks like a parallel, TOTE EIRHKEN, IDOU hHKW  
> TOU POIHSAI TO QELHMA SOU. ANAIPEI TO PRWTON hINA TO DEUTERON  
> STHSHi, in that DEUTERON seems to be a reference to the abstract  
> noun phrase TO QELHMA SOU, just as Rom 10:3 joins STHSAI with the  
> abstract THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN.  An added benefit is that it  
> provides us with a possible antonym, AVAIREW.
>
> However, Ac 7:60, KURIE, MH STHSHiS AUTOIS TAUTHN THN hAMAPTIAN,  
> doesn't seem to have the same sense, possibly due to the presence of  
> AUTOIS.
>
> Your example of Mk 7:9, though it is under #4 in BDAG, also seems to  
> be a good equivalent since it joins a similar kind of noun, THN  
> PARADOSIN hUMWN, to STHSHTE.
>
> John
>
> --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> wrote:
>
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
> To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 8:52 PM
>
>
> On Oct 11, 2009, at 8:50 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
>>
>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 7:19 PM, John Wilking wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 10:3
>>> To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 12:10 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:05 AM, John Wilking wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to make sense of KAI THN IDIAN ZHTOUNTES STHSAI.  If we
>>>> pick up DIKAIOSUNHN from the previous clause we are left with
>>>> STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN.  Does something like this occur
>>>> elsewhere?
>>>
>>> The full text: Rom. 10:3 ἀγνοοῦντες γὰρ τὴν
>>> τοῦ θεοῦ δικαιοσύνην καὶ τὴν ἰδίαν
>>> [δικαιοσύνην] ζητοῦντες στῆσαι, τῇ
>>> δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ
> οὐχ
>>> ὑπετάγησαν. [AGNOOUNTES GAR THN TOU QEOU DIKAIOSUNHN KAI
>>> THN IDIAN [DIKAIOSUNHN] ZHTOUNTES STHSAI, THi DIKAIOSUNHi TOU QEOU
>>> OUC hUPETAGHSAN. ]
>>>
>>> It's not altogether clear what it is you are asking. Is it, "What
>>> does STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN mean?" I'd say that the sense is
>>> something like "set up their own notion of what is fair" or "set up
>>> their own notion of what is right." Paul Tillich once suggested a
>>> trichotomy of "autonomy," "heteronomy," and "theonomy." In terms of
>>> that
>>> STHSAI THN IDIAN DIKAIOSUNHN might be equivalent to Tillich's term
>>> "autonomy," which I take to mean observance of principles that one
>>> chooses for him or herself rather than abiding by principles
>>> proposed by God.
>>>
>>> The nearest equivalent
>>>
>>>
>>>
> JCW  Or instances of similar structure that use different abstract
>>> nouns as a way of getting a handle on the semantics of the verb
>>> hISTHMI.  For example, does something like STHSAI THN IDIAN KPISIN
>>> occur anywhere?
>>
>> There is no other instance than the text I cited, Mark 7:9. As for
>> STHSAI, I think that BDAG s.v. hISTHMI #2 is right on target here:
>
> That should be BDAG s.v. hISTHMI #3
>
>> this is a figurative extension of the literal sense, "cause to be  
>> in a
>> place or position."
>>
>>> to the phrase in question that I find in the GNT is Mark 7:9 καὶ
>>> ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· καλῶς ἀθετεῖτε  
>>> τὴν
>>> ἐντολὴν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα τὴν
>>> παράδοσιν ὑμῶν στήσητε. [KAI ELEGEN AUTOIS·
>>> KALWS AQETEITE THN ENTOLHN TOU QEOU, hINA THN PARADOSIN
> hUMWN
>>> STHSHTE. ], something like, "You've got a neat way of nullifying
>>> God's commandment so as to put your own tradition in place."
>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>
>>
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