[B-Greek] Meaning/application of TO AUTO ("the same") in 1 Cor 10:3-4

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Oct 2 23:56:43 EDT 2009


I understand from this that you are concerned with the antecedent of τὸ αὐτὸ [TO AUTO].  The text has disappeared in the exchanges so I repeat it and include the text from the beginning of the chapter since I consider that necessary.

10 Οὐ θέλω γὰρ ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν, ἀδελφοί, ὅτι οἱ πατέρες ἡμῶν πάντες ὑπὸ τὴν νεφέλην ἦσαν καὶ πάντες διὰ τῆς θαλάσσης διῆλθον 2καὶ πάντες εἰς τὸν Μωϋσῆν ἐβαπτίσθησαν ἐν τῇ νεφέλῃ καὶ ἐν τῇ θαλάσσῃ 3καὶ πάντες τὸ αὐτὸ πνευματικὸν βρῶμα ἔφαγον 4καὶ πάντες τὸ αὐτὸ πνευματικὸν ἔπιον πόμα·ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ πνευματικῆς ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας, ἡ πέτρα δὲ ἦν ὁ Χριστός.


1. OU QELW GAR hUMAS AGNOEIN, ADELFOI, hOTI hOI PATERES hHMWN PANTES hUPO THN NEFELHN HSAN KAI PANTES DIA THS QALASSHS DIHLQON
2. KAI PANTES EIS TON MWÜSHN EBAPTISQHSAN EN THi NEFELHi KAI EN THi QALASSHi 
3. KAI PANTES TO AUTO PNEUMATIKON BRWMA EFAGON 
4. KAI PANTES TO AUTO PNEUMATIKON EPION POMA; GAR EK PNEUMATIKHS AKOLOUQOUSHS PETRAS, hH PETRA DE HN hO XRISTOS.

Note that the area of your concern all falls within an indirect discourse introduced by ὅτι [hOTI]. What is he quoting?  Not the canonical text of the OT.  From v. 4 where he speaks of the rock following it would appear that he is citing Jewish tradition.  The subject of the indirect discourse is οἱ πατέρες ἡμῶν [hOI PATERES hHMWN].  The πάντες [PANTES] is in the predicate position and refers to οἱ πατέρες ἡμῶν [hOI PATERES hHMWN].  This is repeated in each verse; in each verse "all" are included.  While τὸ αὐτὸ [TO AUTO] appears with πνευματικὸν βρῶμα [PNEUMATIKON BRWMA] and with [POMA] and thus is attributive describing the food and drink, note that the structure is slightly different with the second in that the verb is interposed in the structure Art-Adj-Noun between the Adj and Noun.  For the sequence Art-AUTO-Noun, consider BDAG s.v. αὐτός [AUTOS] #3 "pert.to
 someth.that is identical with, or closely related to, someth.,w. art.ὁ αὐτός [hO AUTOS]."  Paul then states that the rock in the Jewish tradition followed them and was thus the same rock and equates the same food and the same drink with Christ.  While it must also be considered that all were likewise "baptized" with the same "baptism" in the cloud and the sea, he does not emphasize this since that is not specifically his concern in the passage.  In what follows he emphasizes that the cup and the bread are a κοινωνία [KOINWNIA], a sharing of the body and blood of Christ.

 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2009 6:31:15 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Meaning/application of TO AUTO ("the same") in 1 Cor 10:3-4


Yes, there is a Greek translational meaning and syntax/grammar question in there!

My Greek question is whether the vocabulary or syntax Paul is using in 1 Cor 10:3-4, and 
in the context of 1 Cor 10 (as wall as 8-14) precludes TO AUTO perhaps also meaning that 
Paul is saying that the Israelites partook of "the same" spiritual/Spirit-provided food as the 
Corinthian Christians do at the Lord's Table.

As I said, the default understanding to me would be that Paul is saying that ALL the 
Israelites ate "the same" thing, and not that what they at that time ate and drank was in a 
sense (real or typologically) "the same" thing that Christians now partake of and partake in 
during at the Lord's Table.

But because I think this second meaning is possible, I wanted to know if the way Paul 
says this in the Greek precludes such an alternate or additional understanding of the 
meaning of TO AUTO here.

Thanks!


- - -
Eric S. Weiss 

--- On Fri, 10/2/09, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:


>From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Meaning/application of TO AUTO ("the same") in 1 Cor 10:3-4
>To: "Eric S. Weiss" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>, "b-greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 5:28 PM
>
>
>Is there a Greek question buried in there somewhere?
> george
>gfsomsel 
> 



      



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