[B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13

Nikolaos Adamou nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com
Wed May 27 08:55:26 EDT 2009


I did not have any time the other day, and just put the facts, I think words speak on their own.
There are words in Greek that do not have an equivalent counterpart in English.  If we use dictionaries, it is good if we go back and forth to both languages.
Yes, ἁγνίζομαι (hagnizomai)in English dictionaries is given as dedicated.  But the Greek verb takes its meaning of the same rooted adjective ἁγνὸς  (hagnos)that is given as Chaste or pure.  But chaste is ἀδιάφθορος (adiafthoros) and pure is καθαρὸς both of which are characteristics or ἁγνὸς (hagnos), but not exactly ἁγνὸς (hagnos).

In Greek, the verb is the action or the state of been of what a noun or an adjective of the same root describes.  The meaning of the word comes in its root, and not in its grammatical form.
Thus, I think that ἁγνίζομαι (hagnizomai)is the process of becoming ἁγνὸς (hagnos).  Then why the dictionary gives another explanation.  I thing that ἀφιερώνομαι (afierwnomai) is also related, since its root is ἱερὸς (hieros) become holy, dedicated to God.  Thus, the one that is dedicated to God, becomes ἁγνὸς  (hagnos), becomes ἄμωμος(amwmos).
Look at the verbs of Ignatius' Letter to the Trallians 13:2-3, and the final point εὑρεθείητε ἄμωμοι (euretheietai amwmoi).  Then 2 & 3 are directions, suggestions wishes of how Trallians will be find blameless.
1.  ὑποτασσόμενοι τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερίῳ
2. ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους 
3.  ἁγνίζεται  τὸ πνεῦμα (ὅταν θεοῦ ἐπιτύχω  - ὑπὸ κίνδυνόν εἰμι)
4. πληρῶσαί τὴν αἴτησιν
5 εὑρεθείητε ἄμωμοι

All of the above have to do with the fact that need to found blameless.  ὑποταγή, ἀγάπη, ἁγνισμὸς (hupotage, agape, hagnismos) πληρώνουν τὴν αἴτησιν (not pay as it is in modern Greek, but complete the petition) (plerwnoun tin aitesin)to be found blemeless.

Allow me also one general observation.  Dictionaries are good, very good, but not perfect.  When you use a Greek-English dictionary, go also backwords, from English to Greek.  If there are some small nuances pay attention to them.  There is the importance of the word.  Chaste and pure are characteristics of hagnos, but not hagnos.  Similarly, dedicate is related to hagnizomai, but is no hagnizomai.  Dictionaries are not the authority, but the mean.  Some feeling of the language is also important. 



ἁγνὸς                              Chaste / Pure
Chaste                             Αδιάφθορος
Pure                                Καθαρός
Dedicate                          Αφιερώστε
ἁγνίζομαι / ἁγνίζεται          the process of becoming ἁγνὸς
ἀφιερώνομαι                    the way of becoming ἁγνὸς, by dedication
ἄμωμος                           blameless
It seems to me that there is no one to one relationship
between the Greek word ἁγνὸς / ἁγνίζομαι and one only English word.





Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 21:48:32 -0700
From: gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13
To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com






I'm wondering whether it might have something to do with verbs of touching (a stretch perhaps).  If you look at Ig Eph 8.1 you will see a similar construction.  Holmes has a note that Zahn reads hUPER with it in that passage.
 george
gfsomsel 



… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 






From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: b-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; Nikolaos Adamou <nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com>; George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 3:52:23 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13






George,
 
 
Thanks for checking.  Do you think the text makes sense as it
stands.  What kind of genitive do you think hUMWN is?  Does
Lightfoot say anything about the text maybe being corrupt?
 
Mark L. 

--- On Mon, 5/25/09, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13
To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>, "b-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>, "Nikolaos Adamou" <nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 4:49 PM







I just finished checking.  I have Holmes, Lake and Lightfoot's _Apostolic Fathers_.  All agree with the version you have given.  I don't know where Danker got the hUPER before hUMWN in his entry.
 george
gfsomsel 



… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 






From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: b-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; Nikolaos Adamou <nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 11:25:36 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13

Nikolaos,
 
Here's chapter 13 from Lake's text on line at Christian Classics
Ethereal Library.  I hope it displays okay.
 
XIII
1. Ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς ἡ ἀγάπη Σμυρναίων καὶ Ἐφεσίων. μνημονεύετε ἐν ταῖς προσευχαῖς ὑμῶν τῆς ἐν Συρίᾳ ἐκκλησίας, ὅθεν καὶ οὐκ ἄξιός εἰμι λέγεσθαι, ὢν ἔσχατος ἐκείνων. 2. ἔρρωσθε
 ἐν Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ, ὑποτασσόμενοι τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ὡς τῇ ἐντολῇ, ὁμοιως καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερίῳ. καὶ οἱ κατ’ ἄνδρα ἀλλήλους ἀγαπᾶτε ἐν ἀμερίστῳ καρδίᾳ. 3. ἁγνίζεται ὑμῶν τὸ ἐμὸν πνεῦμα οὐ μόνον νῦν, ἀλλὰ καὶ ὅταν θεοῦ ἐπιτύχω. ἔτι γὰρ ὑπὸ κίνδυνόν εἰμι· ἀλλὰ πιστὸς ὁ πατὴρ ἐν Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ πληρῶσαί μου τὴν αἴτησιν
καὶ ὑμῶν, ἐν ᾧ εὑρεθείητε ἄμωμοι.
 
Mark L. 


--- On Mon, 5/25/09, Nikolaos Adamou <nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Nikolaos Adamou <nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13
To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com, "b-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 11:13 AM




#yiv1300945436 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px;}
#yiv1300945436 {
font-size:10pt;
font-family:Verdana;}


I agree with Carl, it has to be some textual variation.

Since I do not have an access to the text before and below this phrase i do not want to expand, but, "hAGVIZETAI hUMWN TO EMON PNEUMA" is problematic.
<hAGVIZETAI TO EMON PNEUMA> is
 meaningful.
<hAGVIZETAI hYPER hUMWN TO EMON PNEUMA> is also meaningful.

If you can give me the complete sentence, or even few sentences I can say more.

Hagnizomai, is a typical verb that its meaning is the action or the status that comes from the adjective.
Agnos, agne, agno
thus
agnizomai is the action of becoming agnos/e



Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 09:38:57 -0700
From: lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com






Nikolaos,
 
I'd love
 to hear what you think hAGNIZOMAI means, plus
your take on the genitive hUMWN.
 
Maybe it means something like "my spirit is
getting clean on your behalf...?"
 
Carl may be correct about the text being 
in question.  Bauer seems to be quoting from
a text which has hUPER instead of the
bare genitive  All I have is Holmes, which does
not have a note.  Is a critical text available
on line or does anyone have one? 
 
Mark L. 

--- On Mon, 5/25/09, Nikolaos Adamou <nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Nikolaos Adamou <nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13
To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com, "b-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 10:03 AM




#yiv1300945436 .ExternalClass #EC_yiv1722585180 .EC_hmmessage P
{padding:0px;}
#yiv1300945436 .ExternalClass #EC_yiv1722585180
{font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

Mark, 
hAGVIZETAI is not dedicated
check for the appropriate  meaning


> Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:46:29 -0700
> From: lightmanmark at yahoo.com
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>
 Subject: [B-Greek] hAGNIZOMAI with the genitive in I Tr 3:13
> 
> 
> Ignatius' Letter to the Trallians 13:3:
> ἁγνιζεται ὑμων το εμον πνευμα, ου μονον
> 
> νυν αλλα και ὁταν θεου επιτυχω
>  
> hAGVIZETAI hUMWN TO EMON PNEUMA, OU MONON
> VUV ALLA KAI hOTAN QEOU EPITUCW
>  
> "My spirit is dedicated to you, not only now, but when I
> obtain God."
>  
> What do we make of the hUMWN being in the genitive?
> Sometimes I don't care to characterize what type of
> genitive something is, but in this case, if you had to 
> characterize it, how would you?  Don't say "genitive of
> dedication."  Is there such a thing as a genitive of
> advantage?  Is there any chance that agency is meant
> here, as if with hUPO?  Other than just saying that
> this
 verb in the middle can take the genitive, is there
> something germane to the genitive that I am missing here?
> Can anyone think of similar verbs that take the genitive?
> I could not find any similar uses of hAGNIZOMAI
> with the bare genitive in the NT or in the lexicons.
>  
> Mark L. 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
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