[B-Greek] 2COR. 1:8 AGNOEIN hUPER ...

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Mon May 25 09:00:06 EDT 2009


 
What does Harris mean by saying that the hUPER clause
modifies the whole sentence?  Is he saying that there is
a referent to the Asian suffering lurking around 
all seven or eight clauses in the sentence, or however
many there are depending on when you think the sentence
ends?  This is not impossible, but, if so, wouldn't the idea
also lurk around AGNOEIN, which very thing Harris seeks to
avoid?  Much simpler that 'HUPER and PERI get conflated
as they do all over the place.  I've never understood the
argument that since X never means Y in Z it can't mean
Y here.  Why can't 2 Cor 1:8 be the only place where
Paul uses hUPER for PERI?
 
Mark L

--- On Mon, 5/25/09, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:


From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 2COR. 1:8 AGNOEIN hUPER ...
To: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
Cc: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 4:59 AM



On May 25, 2009, at 12:58 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:

> 2Cor. 1:8 Οὐ γὰρ θέλομεν ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν,
> ἀδελφοί, ὑπὲρ τῆς θλίψεως ἡμῶν  
> τῆς
> γενομένης ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ, ὅτι καθ᾿
> ὑπερβολὴν ὑπὲρ δύναμιν ἐβαρήθημεν
> ὥστε ἐξαπορηθῆναι ἡμᾶς καὶ τοῦ
> ζῆν·  9 ἀλλὰ αὐτοὶ ἐν ἑαυτοῖς τὸ
> ἀπόκριμα τοῦ θανάτου ἐσχήκαμεν,
> ἵνα μὴ πεποιθότες ὦμεν ἐφ᾿  
> ἑαυτοῖς
> ἀλλ᾿ ἐπὶ τῷ θεῷ τῷ ἐγείροντι τοὺς
> νεκρούς·  10 ὃς ἐκ τηλικούτου  
> θανάτου
> ἐρρύσατο ἡμᾶς καὶ ῥύσεται, εἰς ὃν
> ἠλπίκαμεν [ὅτι] καὶ ἔτι ῥύσεται,  11
> συνυπουργούντων καὶ ὑμῶν ὑπὲρ
> ἡμῶν τῇ δεήσει, ἵνα ἐκ πολλῶν
> προσώπων τὸ εἰς ἡμᾶς χάρισμα διὰ
> πολλῶν εὐχαριστηθῇ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν.
>
>
> 2COR. 1:8 OU GAR QELOMEN hUMAS AGNOEIN, ADELFOI, hUPER THS QLIYEWS
> hHMWN THS GENOMENHS EN THi ASIAi, hOTI KAQ᾿ hUPERBOLHN hUPER DUNAMIN
> EBARHQHMEN hWSTE EXAPORHQHNAI hHMAS KAI TOU ZHN·  9 ALLA AUTOI EN
> hEAUTOIS TO APOKRIMA TOU QANATOU ESCHKAMEN, hINA MH PEPOIQOTES WMEN
> EF᾿ hEAUTOIS ALL᾿ EPI TWi QEWi TWi EGEIRONTI TOUS NEKROUS·  10  
> hOS
> EK THLIKOUTOU QANATOU ERRUSATO hHMAS KAI hRUSETAI, EIS hON HLPIKAMEN
> [hOTI] KAI ETI hRUSETAI,  11 SUNUPOURGOUNTWN KAI hUMWN hUPER hHMWN THi
> DEHSEI, hINA EK POLLWN PROSWPWN TO EIS hHMAS CARISMA DIA POLLWN
> EUCARISTHQHi hUPER hHMWN.
>
>
> According to M.J. Harris:2005 (2Cor NIGTC p153)[1],  hUPER ... EN THi
> ASIAi is not an argument of AGNOEIN which he claims never (in Paul)
> takes a hUPER "clause" as an argument. Harris says that AGNOEIN
> typically takes a hOTI clause, an accusative or PERI. He suggests that
> the  hUPER "clause modifies the whole sentence".
>
> I didn't find anything that directly refutes Harris by a quick look
> through TLG :-) However, I have some misgivings about the structure of
> his argument. The search string [1] should get you too the right page
> if you are in the USA. I would be interested in any comments on the
> validity of the reasoning behind his exegesis on this point. I am not
> terrible concerned about the conclusion, just the process of building
> his case.

On the other hand, this text is very similar to
1Th. 4:13     Οὐ θέλομεν δὲ ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν,  
ἀδελφοί, περὶ τῶν κοιμωμένων, ἵνα  
μὴ λυπῆσθε καθὼς καὶ οἱ λοιποὶ οἱ  
μὴ ἔχοντες ἐλπίδα.
OU QELOMEN DE hUMAS AGNOEIN, ADELFOI, PERI TWN KOIMWMENWN, hINA MH  
LUPHQHSQE KAQWS KAI hO;I LOIPOI hOI MH ECONTES ELPIDA.

and BDAG, s.v. hUPER notes as sense A.3:

    3. marker of general content, whether of a discourse or mental  
activity, about, concerning (about equivalent to περί [τινος]  
{PERI TINOS}, w. which it is freq. interchanged in the mss.; ...

I wouldn't affirm Harris' judgment in this instance.


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)



---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek



      


More information about the B-Greek mailing list