[B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in latest BibSac

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed May 6 11:51:31 EDT 2009


Of course, ERXETAI is a process verb, i.e. it describes an activity which has some time-span.  On the other hand, there are words which are mostly momentary in nature such as θνῄσκω QNHiSKW.  The process verb can be used in describing a completed action, and the momentary verb can be used to describe the process of the momentary action, but this is not the norm.  Therefore to say that the verb ERXOMAI in "Jesus is coming again" is NORMALLY used to describe a process and may therefore be in media res therefore having a future aspect.
 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: "Shumaker, Dave" <DShumaker at bbc.edu>
To: "b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; Rod Rogers <rngrogers at embarqmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 5:49:24 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in latest BibSac

If you are wondering about the present tense and its use in future time,  how would you translate 1 John 2:18?  It seems to me that the context demands a future understanding of erxetai.  The reason this must be so is that there are temporal indicators like the vuv with the perfect verb that stands in contrast to erxetai.  Thus, the most natural translation is "...antichrist is coming, and even now many antichrists have come."  Thus, the most natural understanding of the erxetai is to refer to the future.

This would be no different than our English usage of the present tense for the future.  Christians affirm that Jesus "is coming again."  As far as I can tell, all Christians who affirm this believe in a future return of the King.

So, it seems to me that the present tense form can be used to describe future events--given the right temporal indicators in the context.

For whatever its worth,

Dave Shumaker
Assistant Professor of Greek and Biblical Studies
Baptist Bible College of Pennsylvania

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 5:50 AM
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; Rod Rogers
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in latest BibSac


Rod:

I want to put in front of us my first question that is deemed "forbidden." It read as follows:

Does the Present Tense verb (hOMOLOGEW)
really refer to some ongoing process? Does a
Present Tense verb direct the readers'
attention to the future, ever? I'm not sure I
see how a Present Tense verb speaks to any
issues beyond the "present."

My concern is whether or not a Present Tense ever refers to the FUTURE. This was what Ed Glasscock says in the BibSac article. My question is about the temporal nature of a Present Tense verb(al) and whether or not a Present Tense FORM has the capacity to include more than the 'present time.' My hope was to move the discussion to its Grammatical Aspect (the form of a verbal) and its temporal aspect.

I think if the Present Tense, by its "in progress" aspect, refers to some 'ongoing process (off into the future),' then we will need to say this about all Present Tense verbals. Wouldn't that alone create havoc as we translate the GNT. But, if we limit any Present Tense verb to a temporal "currently in progress," then we can limit its temporal aspect to the present time. I think the Future Tense verbs are used if the author wants to make a comment about the future. I just don't see how we can allow a Present Tense verb to have any reference to the future. This is what I'm trying to get feedback on.

Mitch Larramore
Sugar Land, Texas


--- On Tue, 5/5/09, Rod Rogers <rngrogers at embarqmail.com> wrote:

> From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at embarqmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in latest BibSac
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 9:45 PM
> Mitch, in your first question you are
> asking
> a forbidden question on this list. Maybe that
> is why no one has addressed your question.
> You asked, "Does the Present Tense verb
> (hOMOLOGEW) really refer to some ongoing
> process?", What you are really asking,
> couched in a grammatical question is, "Do I
> need to continually ask for forgiveness for
> my sins as a believer?", "Does hOMOLOGEW mean
> continuously confess?". Grammar alone is in
> sufficient to answer your question, I
> believe. Context determines how hOMOLOGEW is
> understood in this verse. I would suggest you
> determine if this is a "PRE" or "POST"
> salvation confession and if this verse is
> directed toward the believer or unbeliever.
> Until you determine what context 1 John 1:9
> falls in you will be hopelessly guessing at
> it's meaning.
>
> As to your second question, "Is that the
> function of the Aorist Tense (in any mood) to
> indicate 'actuality'?", I believe the answer
> is no. I believe that the subjunctive mood is
> used here to establish the potential of the
> forgiveness of sins. That potential is only
> met when one confesses his sins. The $64.00
> question is, "When does this happen"? I'll
> leave that up to you.
>
> rod rogers
> Bargersville, In
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mitch Larramore
> To: B Greek
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 2:11 AM
> Subject: [B-Greek] 1 John 1.9 Ed Glasscock in
> latest BibSac
>
>
>
> Ed Glasscock, an unknown to me, has an
> article in BibSac on 1 John 1.9 and I wanted
> to ask a question or two on comments he
> makes.
>
> "The present tense verb "confess" implies a
> continual process of confessing, which
> indicates the continual potential of sin in a
> believer's life."
>
> Does the Present Tense verb (hOMOLOGEW)
> really refer to some ongoing process? Does a
> Present Tense verb direct the readers'
> attention to the future, ever? I'm not sure I
> see how a Present Tense verb speaks to any
> issues beyond the "present."
>
> "The verb AFHi is an aorist subjunctive
> verb..." [In a footnote he adds, "The aorist
> simply asserts the actuality of the
> event..."]
>
> Is that the function of the Aorist Tense (in
> any mood) to indicate 'actuality'? I can see
> an Indicative Mood denoting 'actuality,' but
> not an Aorist verb, or a Subjunctive Mood
> verbal, ever.
>
> Mitch Larramore
> Sugar Land, Texas
>
>
>
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