[B-Greek] translation strategies

Eddie Mishoe edmishoe at yahoo.com
Thu Jun 25 11:54:42 EDT 2009


Andrew:

Once again I find myself in disagreement at the most fundamental level. Some very strange assumptions are being used with this kind of reply.

To answer Mark's question: By the way, would one call ANAPNEUSIS POLEMOIO, a "polemical genitive?" 

The answer is NOT: I think the point is that we wouldn't call it anything.  We would just read it with understanding.

You have to know the context in which this question is being asked!!

Who wants to know about the phrase ANAPNEUSIS POLEMOIO? 

Use yourself as an example: Did you read it with understanding the first time you saw the Greek language? Didn't your first learn the alphabet and some vocabulary? Didn't you then begin to acquire more and more knowledge of the Greek language? Didn't you put questions to your Greek teachers?

You can't answer a question in a vacuum. You can't make any assumptions and just answer the question without first thinking. You have to ask Mark, "Give me the context of this question, so I don't answer the wrong question." If the context of this question is a beginning level student asking a question in a Greek class in college, you might answer the question differently. 

There are all kinds of people along the spectrum of learning the Bible, reading the Bible. Some are new to it; some are experienced. Answer the question appropriate to where the asker is on the spectrum. And you will have to get that information by asking some questions yourself, or understand the context by virtue of being in the environment.

This is why I'm frustrated. We often respond with tunnel vision, or with presuppositions that the other party has no concept of.


Eddie Mishoe
Pastor


--- On Thu, 6/25/09, Suttles, Andrew C. (GRC-DSI0) <andrew.c.suttles at nasa.gov> wrote:

> From: Suttles, Andrew C. (GRC-DSI0) <andrew.c.suttles at nasa.gov>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translation  strategies
> To: "'B Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 11:04 AM
> I think the point is that we wouldn't
> call it anything.  We would just read it with
> understanding.
> 
> Andrew
> Cleveland, OH
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-
> >bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]
> On Behalf Of Mark Lightman
> >Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:48 AM
> >To: 'B Greek'; Yancy Smith
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translation strategies
> >
> >By the way, would one call
> >ANAPNEUSIS POLEMOIO,
> > a "polemical genitive?"
> >
> >Mark L.
> >
> >--- On Thu, 6/25/09, Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translation strategies
> >To: "'B Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>,
> "Yancy Smith"
> ><yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
> >Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 8:23 AM
> >
> >
> >I'm looking forward to Eddie's response, but during
> this αναπνευσις
> >πολεμοιο
> >ANAPNEUSIS POLEMOIO, as Homer might say, let me add a
> quick point
> >which is neither original nor germane to Eddieʼs real
> point, since we
> >still don't
> >know exactly what that is yet.
> >
> >If we are going to retain terms like "Genitive of
> Purpose," can we at
> >least
> >use the Greek term?  Randall was a forerunner in this,
> but now his
> >FWNH EN THi ERHMΗi has been joined by Christophe Rico
> who includes
> >six pages of grammatical terms in Greek.  In
> retrospect, it seems almost
> >crazy that we did not all learn DOTIKH early on, since
> this would help us
> >with DIDWMI when we came to it, and most of us had to
> learn what
> >"dative" means anyway.  Plus, is "genitive" even used
> anywhere anymore
> >other than in Greek or Latin.  Not in Hebrew or
> English, I know.
> >
> >There are two other advantages to using Greek not Latin
> GRAMMATIKAI.
> >It would force us to decide which terms to keep.  If
> hH GENIKH TOU TELOU
> >is not helpful in Greek, throw it out.  Two, and more
> importantly, and
> >totally
> >outside the realm of this thread, it would give us
> early experience with
> >hearing
> >more Greek in the classroom.  I think one of the
> reasons Hebrew may be
> >easier to internalize than Greek is that there are many
> Hebrew terms which
> >are commonly spoken by Americans during linguistic and
> theological
> >conversations,
> >e.g.  TORAH, SHABAT, MISHKAN, HA SHEM, BAT QOL, etc. 
> These are
> >mixed in with English by Jews and Gentiles alike.  We
> all say "read from
> >the Torah," but who ever says read the Graphe or the
> Biblion.  It's harder
> >to do in Greek because of the EGLISEIS and the accents,
> but Buth and Rico
> >show it can be done.
> >
> >I've got to be careful not to sound like an obnoxious
> convert to living
> >language
> >methods,  I've have been an obnoxious defender of Old
> School Methods on
> >the list and reserve my right to do so in the
> future.  But using
> >Aitiatike instead of Accusative
> >is one reform I would be in favor of right away. I
> wonder how Wallace's
> >book would
> >be different if he were to use more Greek.
> >
> >Now let the MAXH resume.
> >
> >Φωσπορος Μαρκος
> >
> >--- On Thu, 6/25/09, Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >From: Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translation strategies
> >To: "'B Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> >Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 7:20 AM
> >
> >
> >I want to add two pence to this discussion from the far
> left field. My
> >Greek
> >teacher, Mr. Robert Johnston of Abilene Christian
> University, used to tell
> >his students that the didactic categories of Greek
> grammar taught to
> >middling students were like the scaffolding built
> around a building. At
> >some
> >point in the construction process, the scaffolding
> becomes a bother and
> >must
> >be removed. Before that point the scaffolding is
> probably necessary. I say
> >"probably," because it all depends on the method of
> learning. For example,
> >many students of living foreign language don't get this
> kind of stuff
> >until
> >they take a "Contrastive Grammar" course sometime late
> in the language
> >learning process. We become hopelessly confused,
> however, when we think
> >that
> >our didactic grammar categories represent something
> like (universally?)
> >normative grammar rules and binding us to them some
> sort of description of
> >reality. Didactic grammatical tags are rather ad hoc
> for the most part.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> >[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]
> On Behalf Of Carl Conrad
> >Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:47 AM
> >To: Eddie Mishoe
> >Cc: B Greek
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translation strategies
> >
> >Let's start all over again with this, please. I've
> re-read the
> >original question as posted below and I think now, as I
> did when I
> >first read it, that it is a reaction to (against) my
> fervent hope that
> >we were not going to add a new subcategory of "genitive
> of purpose" to
> >the numerous subcategories of Wallace's GGBB.
> >
> >Unless I really am off my rocker (Eddie suggests "early
> signs of
> >dementia" and later comments that I am out in left
> field (while Mike
> >Aubrey is out in right field, neither of us two 
> having grasped what
> >Eddie is really trying to say), let me try a strategy
> (that word will
> >get me into trouble again, I'm sure) I once learned
> that was supposed
> >to foster effective communication in meetings and make
> meetings
> >shorter and more efficient: make sure that you
> understand what the
> >other guy is saying; state in your own words what you
> think the other
> >guy's saying, then let him tell you if that's what he
> really meant.
> >
> >I and perhaps a few others have frequently complained
> (verily, ad
> >nauseam) about the "multiplication of grammatical
> subcategories" in
> >Wallace's GGBB, with special frequency and vehemence
> directed toward
> >the interpretive subcategories of the adnominal
> genitive (including
> >that most curious beast, the "aporetic genitive" -- a
> term that seems
> >to point roughly to something like Abbot and Costello's
> "Who's on
> >first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third."). I
> have even
> >suggested, and I think some others have concurred with
> me, that
> >Wallace's subcategories such as these subcategories of
> the adnominal
> >genitive, do not really represent grammatical
> constructions that would
> >have meant anything to a native Greek speaker or
> writer; rather these
> >subcategories are explanatory terms designed to help
> the intermediate
> >Greek student understand how the meaning of the Greek
> construction in
> >each particular instance would find expression in
> English. I think
> >that I myself may have to bear the responsibility and
> blame for
> >calling these subcategories "translation strategies"
> rather than
> >straightforward grammatical accounts of how the Greek
> construction
> >functions in the mind of the Greek speaker/writer and
> what it means to
> >the Greek speaker/writer.
> >
> >Now perhaps I am wholly mistaken here -- Eddie
> certainly seems
> >convinced that I am --, but I had the impression that
> Eddie was using
> >the term "translation strategies" to refer to Wallace's
> subcategories
> >of the adnominal genitive in GGBB, objecting once
> again, as indeed he
> >has done before, to my disparagement of these
> "grammatical"
> >subcategories as explanations of the Greek construction
> in terms of
> >how the Greek construction is best conveyed in English.
> If that is the
> >case, then Eddie is insisting (more forcefully, in
> fact) that
> >Wallace's subcategories -- including a putative
> "Genitive of Purpose"
> >-- do indeed convey exactly -- no more and no less --
> what the
> >original Greek expression is actually saying/meaning.
> >
> >IS that what you actually meant, Eddie? Or have I
> really misunderstood
> >you altogether, after all?
> >
> >Now I continue to disapprove of all those subcategories
> and I continue
> >to think that the student of Greek really ought to read
> oodles of
> >Greek and spend less time working with "Greek" grammars
> that focus on
> >explaining how to turn Greek constructions into
> idiomatic English.
> >
> >BUT -- to be fair to Wallace's declared intent with
> regard to GGBB,
> >Wallace has acknowledged openly -- recently in a
> comment on a blog
> >(was it yours, Mike?) and even in the Introduction to
> GGBB (but who
> >ever reads Introductions?) --, that these subcategories
> are NOT
> >precise semantic content inherent in the syntactic
> structure of the
> >adnominal genitive, but RATHER are
> interpretative/interpretive
> >SYNTHESES  of the inherent semantic content of the
> adnominal genitive
> >construction PLUS the contextual indicators
> ("pragmatic" factors)
> >pointing to how the phrase formulated in this
> constrution in this
> >particular context means what Walace believes it
> means.
> >
> >TO ME that means that GGBB's textbook explanation of
> Greek grammatical
> >constructions in the GNT is in itself NOT a GRAMMAR of
> NT Greek but
> >rather a METHODOLOGY FOR INTERPRETING the NT Greek
> text. And I surmise
> >that Eddie means that WITHOUT SUCH A METHODOLOGY FOR
> INTERPRETING the
> >NT Geek text, it is impossible to EXPLAIN what the
> Greek text MEANS.
> >
> >Now IF that's what Eddie was trying to say, I
> understand it, even if I
> >don't agree with it. I would rather approach the Greek
> text of the NT
> >as freshly as I can every time I look at it, even if
> I'm looking at a
> >passage I've looked at before, and try to understand it
> as it flows in
> >its own sequence of words, phrases, and clauses,
> gathering my own
> >grasp of the meaning of the passage as a whole before I
> ever begin to
> >ANALYZE the construction in terms of WHY I think it
> means what I think
> >it means. I really don't want to have all these
> algorithmic tools for
> >calculating the pragmatic features of the context and
> pigeonholing the
> >resultant construction into something called a
> "Genitive of Purpose."
> >
> >I don't want to read 2 COR. 1:24 OUC hOTI KURIEUOMEN
> hUMWN THS PISTEWS
> >ALLA SUNERGOI ESMEN THS CARAS hUMWN. THi GAR PISTEI
> hESTHKATE and feel
> >the need to analyze what kind of genitive is involved
> in the phrasing
> >of  SUNERGOI ESMEN THS CARAS hUMWN. I am perhaps silly
> enough to
> >imagine that it is reasonably clear that Paul is
> claiming to have
> >played some part in bringing about the joy felt by the
> Corinthian
> >congregation.
> >
> >IN SUM, I don't really think it is all about
> "translating,
> >translating, translating." I think it's about "reading
> Greek and
> >understanding the Greek that one reads" without giving
> thought to how
> >the Greek phrasing would convert into the right
> phrasing for one or
> >another target language. I continue to believe that one
> must
> >understand the Greek text BEFORE one can ever translate
> it. And I
> >continue to think that "explaining the Greek NT" is not
> ultimately a
> >matter of "translation strategies" as it is a matter of
> understanding
> >the text of the NT as a Greek text and being able to
> communicate what
> >one understands.
> >
> >Now it may be that this is not at all what Eddie Mishoe
> was talking
> >about. If it isn't, I apologize for being still out in
> left field, but
> >I hope that I have made clear at least what I think
> about what I
> >thought he was talking about.
> >
> >Carl W. Conrad
> >Department of Classics, Washington University
> (Retired)
> >
> >
> >On Jun 24, 2009, at 4:36 PM, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I have spoken out in opposition to this, and feel
> compelled to
> >> continue saying why I think translation strategies
> are the key to
> >> explaining the GNT, no -- the only way to explain
> the GNT.
> >>
> >> Translation strategies are when the translator
> brings the original
> >> language concept into the target language. The
> concept being
> >> explained is EXCLUSIVELY that found in the
> original language.
> >>
> >> It is sheer nonsense to continue to gripe about
> translation
> >> strategies as if they are somehow using the target
> language to
> >> explain a target language concept. Idioms create
> their own set of
> >> challenges, but for the rest of the text, the most
> effective way (no
> >> -- the only way) to translate the meaning and
> nuance from the
> >> original language to the target language is by
> translation strategy.
> >>
> >> Translators are interpreters. Interpreters
> translate in the target
> >> language the concept being discussed in the
> original language. The
> >> many, many Genitive categories and sub-categories
> we find in GGBB is
> >> only the tip of the iceberg of the many ways a
> Genitive can
> >> function. If we included the Hellenistic
> literature, we would need
> >> to add a couple hundred more; this is what the
> concept of "nuance"
> >> means. If one were to give the nuances of the
> English word "in" to a
> >> Greek reader, that Greek reader would have to
> learn more than 100
> >> usages of this "simple" preposition. Other words
> are even worse. The
> >> point is, each of the 100+ usages of "in" have a
> separate
> >> grammatical categories and sub-categories.
> >>
> >> Using this "purpose adnominal genitive" is an
> attempt to convey the
> >> GREEK concept behind the GREEK structure to
> ENGLISH readers. We may
> >> need a much larger literary corpus to analyze the
> legitimacy of this
> >> "purpose adnominal genitive." However, until that
> is undertaken, we
> >> have to continue following hunches.
> >>
> >> One could argue that the sole function of a
> translator is to use
> >> translation strategies to convey the meaning and
> nuances of the
> >> original language into the target language.
> >>
> >>
> >> Eddie Mishoe
> >> Pastor
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek

> >B-Greek mailing list
> >B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

> >[Yancy Smith]
> >
> >
> >
> >Yancy Smith
> >Yancy W. Smith, PhD
> >World Bible Translation Center
> >4028 Daley Ave., Suite 201
> >Fort Worth, TX 76180
> >p 817-595-1664
> >f 817580-7013
> >yancy at wbtc.org
> >
> >Be kinder than necessary for everyone you meet is
> fighting some kind of
> >battle.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek

> >B-Greek mailing list
> >B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
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> >B-Greek mailing list
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
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> >B-Greek mailing list
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