lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sun Jun 21 10:40:30 EDT 2009
I happened to be reading Mt 18, the other day, and I actually think that
Carl gave you just the example of Excluding TOIOUTOS that
you were looking for. Verse 4 says you have to humble
yourself hWS TO PAIDION TOUTO, "like this child."
Then the next verse, which Carl quoted, refers to
to the person who receives hEN PAIDION TOIOUTO, "one
such child", or one "like this child," referring not to a child
at all, but to an adult who has humbled himself like a child.
I think in fact the child IS excluded from the comparison, as
are all children. Jesus is taking about adults. And I would
agree with your friend's preacher's take on Luke 18:16 as another
example of Excluding TOIOUTOS.
A third example may be from Iliad 2:372:
αι γαρ Ζευ τε πατερ και Αθηναιη και Απολλον
τοιουτοι δεκα μοι συμφραδμονες ειεν Αχαιων
AI GAR ZEU TE PATER KAI AQHNAIH KAI APOLLON
TOIOUTOI DEKA MOI SUMFRADMONES EIEN ACAIWN
"O Father Zeus and Athena and Apollo, would that
there were to me among the Achaians ten counselors such
You could argue that Nestor is excluded from Agamemnon's
wish, because he already has Nestor as a counselor. He
wants men like Nestor, but not Nestor himself, just as in
your example the guy wants someone like his sister, but not his
sister himself, for a wife. I doubt you will find an example as clear
as yours, but I think you could say in Koine. ̔η αδελφη μου καλη. θελω
γαμησειν τοιαυτην. hH ADELFH MOU KALH. QELW GAMHSEIN TOIAUTHN
and mean just what you mean. This was probably said many times,
but just not left for us to read in the extant documents.
I'll keep looking for more examples of Excluding TOIOUTOS. It's one
of the things I like about b-greek. People raise issues and it gives you
something to look for in the future when you read.
--- On Thu, 6/18/09, Charles Johnson <cpj5117 at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Charles Johnson <cpj5117 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] TOIOUTOS
To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
Cc: "B Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 9:07 AM
Carl, in Mat. 18:5, isn't Jesus referring to any little child? TOIOUTO does
not seem to me to be designating a specific kind of child that we are
supposed to receive. Why would that particular child not qualify for
reception in Jesus' name?
I have surveyed the NT references, and right now I am fairly convinced that
TOIOUTOS usually acts inclusively, "of this sort" rather than "similar to,"
although sometimes those two could be interchangeable. I've also found a few
interesting uses that seem to place the emphasis in other area. What I
haven't found is a passage that works exclusively, like hOMOIOS seems to do
I was intrigued because I visited a friend's church, where the pastor
preached from Luke 18:15-17, which contains the phrase TWN GAR TOIOUTWN
ESTIV hH BASILEIA TOU THEOU. The pastor said that "such" did *not* actually
refer to the infants (BREFH v. 15) at all, but people who were "like"
children. Now, clearly in the next verse Jesus makes a statement of
comparison, but is it really grammatically possible to exclude the PAIDIA
from the sphere of Jesus' statement in v. 16?
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
> On Jun 18, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Charles Johnson wrote:
> I am wrestling with the meaning of the pronoun TOIOUTOS. Louw-Nida gives
>> one definition "like that." The word "like," though, if taken to mean
>> "similar to" or "resembling," points also to unlikeness. It can function
>> exclude the first person from the class. If someone said, "I would like to
>> marry someone like my sister," we would naturally infer that he means
>> someone resembling his sister, but not her. So, the class is PEOPLE
>> RESEMBLING SISTER - SISTER. However, I had been under the impression that
>> TOIOUTOS functioned by specifying a class. For example, in Acts 22:22, we
>> have AIRE APO THS GHS TOV TOIOUTON, where the primary referent is Paul.
>> the class would be PEOPLE RESEMBLING PAUL + PAUL. At other times, the
>> can be specified more ideally, such as in John 4:23 - hO PATHR TOIOUTOUS
>> ZHTEI TOUS PROSKUNOUNTOUS AUTON. Here an ideal referent is used, so I
>> suppose the class is just PEOPLE WHO WILL WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
>> So, is there ever a time where TOIOUTOUS is used exclusively, as in the
>> sister example?
> How about this: Matt. 18:5 καὶ ὃς ἐὰν δέξηται ἓν παιδίον τοιοῦτο ἐπὶ τῷ
> ὀνόματί μου, ἐμὲ δέχεται. [KAI hOS EAN DEXHTAI hEN PAIDION TOIOUTO EPI TWi
> ONOMATI MOU, EME DECETAI.]
> Jesus is probably referring to the innocent, guileless character of the
> child who is the exemplar rather than the birthmark on his left cheek, so I
> would think that here the comparable child would be a different child but
> like this child in the significant respects.
> It might help you to look at a whole slew of GNT passages ontaining
> TOIOUTOS; here's the list Accordance yields:
> τοιοῦτος [TOIOUTOS] such, of such kind (57)
> Matt 9:8; 18:5; 19:14; Mark 4:33; 6:2; 7:13; 9:37; 10:14; 13:19;
> Luke 9:9; 18:16; John 4:23; 8:5; 9:16; Acts 16:24; 19:25; 22:22; 26:29; Rom
> 1:32; 2:2-3; 16:18; 1 Cor 5:1, 5, 11; 7:15, 28; 11:16; 15:48; 16:16, 18; 2
> Cor 2:6-7; 3:4, 12; 10:11; 11:13; 12:2-3, 5; Gal 5:21, 23; 6:1; Eph 5:27;
> Phil 2:29; 2 Th 3:12; Titus 3:11; Philem 1:9; Heb 7:26; 8:1; 11:14; 12:3;
> 13:16; James 4:16; 3 John 1:8
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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