[B-Greek] 2 Thess 2:13

Brian Abasciano bvabasciano at gmail.com
Tue Jun 9 17:24:49 EDT 2009

I think it is probably overstated to say that it is often necessary to
tranlsate verbal nouns with the corresponding verb. More specifically, even
if that were true, it seems unecessary in this case. Plenty of translations
translate SWTHRIA  with "salvation" here. That is not to say, however, that
it is problematic to do so. That communicates the meaning fine. Yet again, I
would favor translating a Greek verbal noun with the corresponding English
verbal noun when possible.

It is also possible to take the EN phrase with the main verb EILATO, which
would probably be more natural all things being equal, and I would favor
(more precisely, I would tend to take the EN phrase as modifying the whole
phrase starting with EILATO, so of the idea of choosing as firstfruits for
salvation, with the idea of choosing as the head idea). But it seems most
commentators don't seem to go this way (and so perhaps all things are not
equal in this case!). In my opinion, the verbal idea comes out perfectly
fine with translating EIS  SWTHRIA  as "for salvation", as many translations
opt for. Well, there is a mix of actual Greek syntax comments and
translation comments, and this thread is probably too much about translation
for B-Greek. Keeping it on Greek syntax, there are various reasonable
options for how to contrue the section of text you mentioned as outlined by
Iver and Mark and now me.

God bless,

Brian Abasciano


Message: 14
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:12:38 +0300
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 2 Thess 2:13
To: "Jason Kenney" <please_come_soon at yahoo.com>,
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3DC0924A70B344B6A1F0CEA58856AA12 at iveracer>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Kenney" <please_come_soon at yahoo.com>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 8. juni 2009 05:33
Subject: [B-Greek] 2 Thess 2:13

> Hi all,
> My question has to do with the phrase "??? ???????? ?? ??????? ????????? 
> ???
> ?????? ????????" in 2 Thess 2:13.
> I am having a hard time figuring out the logic of the ESV which renders it 
> "
> to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the 
> truth."
> What grounds are there for making ??? ???????? so implicitly verbal? It 
> looks
> like the translators there also see the second clause ( ?? ??????? 
> ?????????
> ??? ?????? ????????) as modifying the "to be saved" as if it were the
> controlling verb.
> Can someone tell me what I am missing? I am not really interested in 
> whether
> the ESV is correct in its rendering, I am just looking for guesses at 
> their
> reasoning...
> Thanks so much!
> Jason Kenney

??? ?????? ???? ? ???? ??????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ????????? ??? ??????

SWTHRIA is a verbal noun, and it is often necessary to translate a verbal
by the corresponding verb in order not to lose the intended meaning,
if the Greek construction is complex with many prepositions.

The EN phrase you mention does semantically connect to SWTHRIA explaining
means by which salvation is obtained, and this is easier to see in English
a verb is used. An alternative if you want to keep the noun would be to
explicate the verbal idea implied in EIS: "to receive salvation".

Although the ESV belongs to the category of literal translations, they
apparently decided that keeping the Greek noun as a noun in English would
communicate the intended meaning clearly enough.

Iver Larsen
Bible Translation Consultant


Message: 18
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 2 Thess 2:13
To: Jason Kenney <please_come_soon at yahoo.com>,
b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org, Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
Message-ID: <761510.29722.qm at web63604.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Iver is exactly right.? Lurking beneath?your quesiton is the fact?that in
Koine nouns in the oblique cases are over-represented. I cannot
think of a?different term.? Often you get a string of nouns with
or in the bare genitive or dative, and if you don't convert them into
verbs or adjectives, you wind up with under translated translationese.
Note that??in Homeric Greek on the one hand
and Modern Greek on the other hand?on?you wind up with
more adjectives and verbs and adverbs?that essentially replace these strings
of nouns.
Mark L. .

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