[B-Greek] Jude 3

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sun Nov 30 12:10:52 EST 2008

I really don't mean to discourage the discussion, only to note that it  
seems to me there's an awful lot of guesswork going on here, all  
grounded in a minimal amount of (Greek) textual evidence.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

On Nov 30, 2008, at 9:39 AM, Vasile Stancu wrote:

> The explanation is probably found in the field of logic rather than  
> in pure
> gramatical analysis. Indeed, the present participle POIOUMENOS  
> indicates
> that the two actions (= James' being making certain efforts + the  
> feeling
> that he needed to address a certain subject) are simultaneous, but the
> problem is, his being making efforts in a certain sense and his  
> final action
> of writing on struggling for the faith, are they integrated with  
> each other?
> That is, the fact that James is writing about struggling for the  
> faith, was
> it part of his original purpose?
> One key phrase is probably PASAN SPOUDHN POIOUMENOS. Supposing the two
> actions had been integrated with each other originally, what could  
> be the
> purpose/role of this expression? I propose that probably the role of  
> this
> phrase could be one of these: (1) a certain emphasis James is using  
> in that
> his message should be taken seriously, as he "made all efforts" in  
> preparing
> it; (2) the fact that ANAGKH ESCON comes as a result of the fact  
> that PASAN
> SPOUDHN POIOUMENOS; (3) "since it is my custom to making all efforts  
> to... I
> find it appropriate to speak to you about... since this is a real  
> problem
> you are now facing".
> I believe the other alternative is more logical, i.e., while making  
> efforts
> to... James felt the need to change his mind, because it allows for a
> natural explanation why the expression PASAN SPOUDHN POIOUMENOS is  
> being
> employed. Moreover, the text seems to suggest that the first action  
> has a
> more general purpose, whereas the other one points to some urgent  
> need, to a
> situation which is not necessarily part of a discourse on THS KOINHS  
> Vasile STANCU
> -----Original Message-----
> From: J.M. Pauw [mailto:jmpauw at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:39 PM
> To: Vasile Stancu; rhutchin at aol.com
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Jude 3
> The question, however, is do you find arguments for this opinion in  
> the very
> Greek text?
> My point is that there two arguments in the text that invite us to  
> think
> about the KOINHS hMWN SWTHRIAS and EPAGWNIZESQAI, etc. as being one  
> and the
> same subject.
> So I'm wondering what you think about these two arguments from the  
> Greek
> text.
> Michel Pauw
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> www.jmpauw.nl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vasile Stancu" <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
> To: "'J.M. Pauw'" <jmpauw at hotmail.com>; <rhutchin at aol.com>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:03 PM
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Jude 3
>> I would compare the circumstances of James with a situation which  
>> may be at
>> times true today. Suppose a preacher is planning to deliver his next
>> sermon
>> on the harmony of the gospels, and suddenly the fact becomes  
>> evident that
>> a
>> prominent member of the congregation has already convinced a number  
>> of the
>> members that, in order to be saved, before becoming Christians, all  
>> men
>> have
>> to be circumsised. I believe the preacher would give up his plan -  
>> even
>> though he might have already delivered a consistent series of  
>> sermons on
>> the
>> harmony of the gospels - and direct his attention to a more urgent  
>> need,
>> i.e., correcting the error that is just occuring and is bound to put
>> serious
>> threats on the whole congregation.
>> The THS KOINHS HMWN SWTERIAS is, I believe, related to situations  
>> where
>> the
>> life and teaching of the church is developing relatively smoothly,  
>> without
>> immediate or dangerous hindrances.
>> Vasile STANCU
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J.M. Pauw
>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 5:22 AM
>> To: rhutchin at aol.com
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Jude 3
>> Exegetes of this verse often assume two different topics that Jude  
>> had
>> been
>> willing to write about, one being the common salvation and one  
>> being the
>> exhortation to battle for the faith. This seems to be the reason  
>> for your
>> stressing the word BUT.
>> BUT I think the Greek text gives two reasons for thinking that it  
>> is one
>> and
>> the same topic that Jude was willing to write about:
>> First, I question whether THS KOINHS (hJMWN) SWTHRIAS should be  
>> rendered
>> 'common salvation'. In fact, these words are the Greek translation  
>> of the
>> Latin terminus technicus 'salus communis', being understood as  
>> 'common
>> welfare', especially in the political sense of the common welfare  
>> under
>> the
>> protection of the Roman Empire. In short: the words are to be  
>> understood
>> as
>> synonym for 'national security / safety' (I don't know which one is  
>> the
>> appropriate English word, but I'm sure you will understand me).
>> So, I suppose, Jude is using this political expression giving it an
>> ecclesiastic meaning: he was going to write about the ecclesiastic
>> security,
>> because this security was threatened by TINES ANQRWPOI (Jude 4).  
>> And just
>> this threatening of the ecclesiastic security is the reason for PASAN
>> Second, since a present participle is used to be translated as
>> simultaneous
>> with the main verb of the clause, I understand Jude being worried  
>> about
>> the
>> situation in the church / congregation, and WHILE thinking about  
>> what to
>> write about this topic, he was urged to write an exhortation.
>> So I should not translate 'in haste', but 'in my diligence /  
>> seriousness
>> to
>> write about our / your (see variants) common security (having in  
>> mind the
>> security of the church / congregation), I felt the urge necessity  
>> to write
>> you with the exhortation to ....'
>> Michel Pauw

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