[B-Greek] [SUSPECTED JUNK EMAIL] Re: LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS

Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Wed May 28 20:21:03 EDT 2008


Right on, Jerry, translator's intent is embedded in the translated  
text. Therefore, one cannot bypass the translated text to divine  
translator's intent. Moreover, the translator in translating cannot  
not concoct his own private lingo but uses perforce the language of  
the speech community to which s/he belongs. That why I said that  
language cannot be created by translator's fiat.
Al
On May 28, 2008, at 6:24 PM, Jerry Reimer wrote:

> As to the AORATOS line, from what Dr. Pietersma has said, something  
> important for translators has emerged. It is that (in essence, if I  
> understand his comments) a translator should not try to second  
> guess the LXX translator by going underneath to the Hebrew text and  
> then translating into some target language from Hebrew instead of  
> Greek (if translating from Greek is what he says he is doing). In  
> short, you translate from the source language you have and not from  
> the remote source language (Hebrew) of the immediate source  
> language (Greek). If one would do this kind of second-guess  
> translation work, he would, of course, not actually be translating  
> from the LXX at all.
>
> I see that NETS has "invisible" for AORATOS which seems to indicate  
> that the translator of Genesis LXX has done just that, namely, he  
> has rendered the usual meaning of the Greek adjective.
>
> Maybe everyone else in the world already knew this a long time ago,  
> but it was very helpful to me to see this discussion on this list.
>
> Jerry Reimer
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek- 
> bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of George F Somsel
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:52 PM
> To: Albert Pietersma
> Cc: Eric S. Weiss; b-greek
> Subject: [SUSPECTED JUNK EMAIL] Re: [B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 -  
> tohu as AORATOS
>
> While it is possible that the use noted in LSJ is used in a  
> cosmogonic context, the snippet given doesn't necessarily indicate  
> such.  Had that been the case, I'm certain Prof H. Evan Runner whom  
> I had for Greek Philosophy would have been severly disappointed  
> that I should be unaware of such.  The "al." in LSJ can indicate  
> that it is another work of the same author.  Unfortunately, I  
> haven't the time at this moment to do any extensive search for it.   
> In other words, you may be correct, but I cannot confirm that.
>
>  george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>; b-greek <b- 
> greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:02:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS
>
> Reference in Plato is specific to the Timaeus because of the use of
> AORATOS in cosmogony.
> Al
>
> On May 28, 2008, at 2:18 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> 2 ? d? ?? ?? ???at?? ?a?
>> ??atas?e?ast??, ?a? s??t?? ?p???
>> t?? ??ss??, ?a? p?e?a ?e??
>> ?pef??et? ?p??? t?? ?dat??.
>> 2 hH DE GH HN AORATOS KAI AKATASKEUASTOS, KAI SKOTOS EPANW THS
>> ABUSSOU, KAI PNEUMA QEOU EPEFERETO EPANW TOU hUDATOS
>> Not to disagree with Albert, but rather more to possibly add to
>> what he has stated.  LSJ notes
>> Pl.Sph.246a, cf. Tht.155e, al.: t?? ?. ?t?ap?t??
>> ??t?? [TAN A. ATRAPITON BIOTOU] obscure, Epigr.Gr.223
>> Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A
>> Greek-English lexicon. "With a revised supplement, 1996." (Rev. and
>> augm. throughout) (173). Oxford; New York: Clarendon Press; Oxford
>> University Press.
>>
>> If I am reading this correctly (and I haven't yet checked on it),
>> Plato in the Theatetus uses ???at?? [AORATOS] in the sense
>> of "obscure." Considering the subsequent statement ?a?
>> s??t?? ?p??? t?? ??ss?? [KAI SKOTOS EPANW
>> THS ABUSSOU], this would seem to be a possible understanding of its
>> use here.george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
>> To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:06:07 AM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS
>>
>> The LXX in Genesis 1:2 translates the Hebrew tohu wa-bohu as
>> AORATOS KAI
>> AKATASKEUASTOS. I.e., the earth was "invisible." Is that perhaps
>> the basis for Hebrews
>> 11:3 saying: PISTEI NOOUMEN KATHRTISQAI TOUS AIWNAS hRHMATI QEOU,
>> EIS TO
>> MH EK FAINOMENWN TO BLEPOMENON GEGONENAI?
>>
>> And ... is AORATOS a proper translation of tohu? The other two
>> occurrences in the Hebrew
>> Bible of tohu with bohu are not translated similarly in the LXX.
>> E.g., Jeremiah 4:23 simply
>> subsumes both words under the single Greek word OUQEN, and Isaiah
>> 34:11 translates
>> tohu as ERHMOS, and the Hebrew bohu phrase is totally different
>> in the Greek.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric S. Weiss
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> Albert Pietersma PhD
> 21 Cross Street,
> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm




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