[B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS

Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Wed May 28 18:04:58 EDT 2008


Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I meant to say that some scholars/ 
students of the LXX make a comparison between AORATOS in Gen 1:2 and   
its use in Plato's Timaeus where P. discusses cosmogony (as does Gen 1).
Yes, I too had H. Evan Runner for some courses in philosophy.
On May 28, 2008, at 5:52 PM, George F Somsel wrote:

> While it is possible that the use noted in LSJ is used in a  
> cosmogonic context, the snippet given doesn't necessarily indicate  
> such.  Had that been the case, I'm certain Prof H. Evan Runner whom  
> I had for Greek Philosophy would have been severly disappointed  
> that I should be unaware of such.  The "al." in LSJ can indicate  
> that it is another work of the same author.  Unfortunately, I  
> haven't the time at this moment to do any extensive search for it.   
> In other words, you may be correct, but I cannot confirm that.
>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>; b-greek <b- 
> greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:02:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS
>
> Reference in Plato is specific to the Timaeus because of the use of
> AORATOS in cosmogony.
> Al
>
> On May 28, 2008, at 2:18 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
> > 2 ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ
> > ἀκατασκεύαστος, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω
> > τῆς ἀβύσσου, καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ
> > ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος.
> > 2 hH DE GH HN AORATOS KAI AKATASKEUASTOS, KAI SKOTOS EPANW THS
> > ABUSSOU, KAI PNEUMA QEOU EPEFERETO EPANW TOU hUDATOS
> > Not to disagree with Albert, but rather more to possibly add to
> > what he has stated.  LSJ notes
> > Pl.Sph.246a, cf. Tht.155e, al.: τὰν ἀ. ἀτραπιτὸν
> > βιότου [TAN A. ATRAPITON BIOTOU] obscure, Epigr.Gr.223
> > Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A
> > Greek-English lexicon. "With a revised supplement, 1996." (Rev. and
> > augm. throughout) (173). Oxford; New York: Clarendon Press; Oxford
> > University Press.
> >
> > If I am reading this correctly (and I haven't yet checked on it),
> > Plato in the Theatetus uses ἀόρατος [AORATOS] in the sense
> > of "obscure."  Considering the subsequent statement καὶ
> > σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου [KAI SKOTOS EPANW
> > THS ABUSSOU], this would seem to be a possible understanding of its
> > use here.george
> > gfsomsel
> >
> >
> > … search for truth, hear truth,
> > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> > defend the truth till death.
> >
> >
> > - Jan Hus
> > _________
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
> > To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:06:07 AM
> > Subject: [B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS
> >
> > The LXX in Genesis 1:2 translates the Hebrew tohu wa-bohu as
> > AORATOS KAI
> >  AKATASKEUASTOS. I.e., the earth was "invisible." Is that perhaps
> > the basis for Hebrews
> >  11:3 saying: PISTEI NOOUMEN KATHRTISQAI TOUS AIWNAS hRHMATI QEOU,
> > EIS TO
> >  MH EK FAINOMENWN TO BLEPOMENON GEGONENAI?
> >
> >  And ... is AORATOS a proper translation of tohu? The other two
> > occurrences in the Hebrew
> >  Bible of tohu with bohu are not translated similarly in the LXX.
> > E.g., Jeremiah 4:23 simply
> >  subsumes both words under the single Greek word OUQEN, and Isaiah
> > 34:11 translates
> >  tohu as ERHMOS, and the Hebrew bohu phrase is totally different
> > in the Greek.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Eric S. Weiss
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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>
>> Albert Pietersma PhD
> 21 Cross Street,
> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
>
>

—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm




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