[B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sat May 24 13:40:17 EDT 2008


There are a number of ways in which one may translate virtually any construction or even word.  The test of one's understanding of a passage is not necessarily dependent upon being able to give a translation which will satisfy everyone.  This is why I am frequently amused by Wallace when he makes such statements as  
c. Key to Identification
For the word ofinsert the paraphrase characterized byor described by. If this fits, and if noneof the other uses of the genitive fits, then the genitive is probably a genitive of description.
Different folks may have different presuppositions regarding what a passage states so using one's translation to determine how it should be translated is totally circular; nevertheless, it is sometimes necessary to actually translate so here is one way.  I am using an example from Rom 7 regarding marriage.
2ἡ γὰρ ὕπανδρος γυνὴ τῷ ζῶντι ἀνδρὶ δέδεται νόμῳ·ἐὰν δὲ ἀποθάνῃ ὁ ἀνήρ, κατήργηται ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τοῦ ἀνδρός.3ἄρα οὖν ζῶντος τοῦ ἀνδρὸς μοιχαλὶς χρηματίσει ἐὰν γένηται ἀνδρὶ ἑτέρῳ·ἐὰν δὲ ἀποθάνῃ ὁ ἀνήρ, ἐλευθέρα ἐστὶν ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου, τοῦ μὴ εἶναι αὐτὴν μοιχαλίδα γενομένην ἀνδρὶ ἑτέρῳ. 
2 hH GAR hUPANDROS GUNH TWi ZWNTI ANDRI DEDETAI NOMWi; EAN DE APOQANHi hO ANHR, KATHRGHTAI APO TOU NOMOU TOU ANDROS.  3 ARA OUN ZWNTOS TOU ANDROS MOIXALIS XRHMATISEI EAN GENHTAI ANDRI hETERWi; EAN DE APOQANHi hO ANHR, ELEUQERA ESTIN APO TOU NOMOU, TOU MH EINAI AUTHN MOIXALIDA GENOMENHN ANDRI hETERWi.
Here it is stated that a married woman is bound to her husband BY THE LAW.  When the husband dies the woman is then freed FROM THE BOND OF THE LAW of marriage.  
Similarly, I think Paul would argue, that when one is dead to the law (of nature) which binds him to sin he is then free to enter into another relationship.  He is no longer bound to the necessity of doing that which is contrary to the law of God.  He is thus DEAD AS REGARDS THE LAW (of sin).  This is why he then states 
Μὴ οὖν βασιλευέτω ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐν τῷ θνητῷ ὑμῶν σώματι εἰς τὸ ὑπακούειν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις αὐτοῦ, 
MH OUN BASILEUETW hH hAMRATIA EN TWi QNHTWi hUMWN SWMATI EIS TO hUPAKOUEIN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS AUTOU.
Don't let sin rule in your mortal body to obey its lusts.
george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 12:57:56 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi

George,

What is the meaning of dative of respect?  How would you translate that?

John C. Wilking


--- On Sun, 5/18/08, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> To: jcwilking at yahoo.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sunday, May 18, 2008, 12:49 PM
> 7ὁ γὰρ ἀποθανὼν δεδικαίωται
> ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας.
> 7The first enthymeme ends with a gnomic saying about the
> status of one who has died through co-crucifixion with
> Christ. The formulation of ὁ ἀποθανών(“he who
> died”) is again generic and refers to everyone who has
> died.147 It is possible that Paul has adapted an
> early version of rabbinic sayings such as “when a man is
> dead he is freed from fulfilling the law”148 
> __________
> 147 In contrast, Conleth Kearns, “The Interpretation of
> Romans 6, 7, ” SPCIC1 (1963) 303–7, suggests that
> “the one who died” is Christ, but this decontextualizes
> v. 7* and results in the odd notion that the process
> of making righteous pertains to Christ rather than to
> believers.
> 148 Str-B, 3.232, citing b.Šabb.151b
> Baraita; a citation is proposed by Karl Georg Kuhn, “Röm
> 6, 7: ὁ γὰρ ἀποθανὼν δεδικαίωται
> ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας,” ZNW30 (1931)
> 305–10, but decisively criticized by Cranfield,
> 1:310–11.
> Jewett, R., Kotansky, R. D., & Epp, E. J. (2006).
> Romans : A commentary. Hermeneia--a critical and historical
> commentary on the Bible (404). Minneapolis: Fortress Press.
> It would appear that the dative is simply a dative of
> respect as is indicated by Paul's further statement
> Ἢ ἀγνοεῖτε, ἀδελφοί,
> γινώσκουσιν γὰρ νόμον λαλῶ,
> ὅτι ὁ νόμος κυριεύει τοῦ
> ἀνθρώπου ἐφʼ ὅσον χρόνον ζῇ; 
> H AGNOEITE, ADELFOI, GINWSKOUSIN GAR NOMON LALW, hOTI hO
> NOMOS KURIEUEI TOU ANQRWPOU EP' hOSON XRONON ZHi?
>  george
> gfsomsel
> 
> 
> … search for truth, hear truth, 
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
> defend the truth till death.
> 
> 
> - Jan Hus
> _________
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 4:35:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Sat, 5/17/08, John Wilking
> <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > To: "Webb Mealy" <webb at selftest.net>
> > Date: Saturday, May 17, 2008, 4:32 PM
> > I think the "absurdity" may be hiding the
> fact
> > that each of the phrases don't make sense in
> English:
> > "dead to sin" and "alive to
> God".  We
> > don't say "dead to rebellion" or
> "alive
> > to my wife".  This isn't primarily a
> translation
> > question, but simply that we notice that "we died
> to
> > sin"  isn't even a possibility, and then ask
> why. 
> > Should we alter the verb sense?  Or should we
> consider the
> > possibility that it is figurative language (another
> way of
> > altering the meaning, but of the entire structure)?
> > 
> > So, I assume by the silence that there are no examples
> in
> > which this structure is seen with other similar nouns,
> > e.g., "dead to patronage" or "alive to
> the
> > Emperor".  (I ran it by a friend who teaches
> Hebrew,
> > and at first glance he was unaware of it occuring in
> that
> > language.)
> > 
> > This led me to ask you if there is a theory of
> metaphor
> > that is currently in use, one that would help us in
> > detecting a metaphor when we might otherwise miss
> it.  I
> > spent a good amount of time years ago working on a
> theory
> > of metonym in NT Greek and came away with something of
> a
> > working model, but that doesn't help here.
> > 
> > Sorry if such elaboration is a waste of time when the
> > question and your silence were both clear enough.
> > 
> > John C. Wilking 
> > 
>> > 
> > 
> > --- On Fri, 5/16/08, Webb Mealy
> <webb at selftest.net>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Webb Mealy <webb at selftest.net>
> > > Subject: RE: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > > To: jcwilking at yahoo.com
> > > Cc: "'Biblical Greek'"
> > <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Date: Friday, May 16, 2008, 6:25 PM
> > > I suppose you get the clue if taking the words in
> > their
> > > ordinary meanings
> > > results in absurdity. Paul says "we have
> > died",
> > > yet he is alive and he is
> > > addressing living people. So "we have
> died"
> > has
> > > to be understood as a figure
> > > of speech. But that is only step one in trying to
> > figure
> > > out what is going
> > > on.
> > > 
> > > Webb Mealy
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of
> > > John Wilking
> > > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 2:59 PM
> > > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > > 
> > > Concerning the previous post, on a broader scale,
> how
> > do we
> > > know if a phrase
> > > is metaphorical?  
> > > 
> > > John C. Wilking
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- On Wed, 5/14/08, John Wilking
> > > <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > From: John Wilking
> <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: APEQANOMEN THi
> > > > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Date: Wednesday, May 14, 2008, 5:30 PM
> > > > I haven't found any discussion of
> APEQANOMEN
> > THi
> > > as a
> > > > possible metaphor in Romans 6:2, APEQANOMEN
> THi
> > > hAMARTIAi.
> > > > 
> > > > John C. Wilking
> > > 
> > > 
> > >      
> > > ---
> > > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
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>       
> ---
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> 7 hO GAR APOQANWN DEDIKAIWTAI APO THS hAMARTIAS
> 10ὃ γὰρ ἀπέθανεν, τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ
> ἀπέθανεν ἐφάπαξ·ὃ δὲ ζῇ, ζῇ
> τῷ θεῷ. 
> 10 hO GAR APEQANEN, THi hAMARTIAi APEQANEN EFAPAC; hO DE
> ZHi, ZHi TWi QEWi. 


      


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