[B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi

John Wilking jcwilking at yahoo.com
Sat May 24 12:57:56 EDT 2008


George,

What is the meaning of dative of respect?  How would you translate that?

John C. Wilking


--- On Sun, 5/18/08, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> To: jcwilking at yahoo.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sunday, May 18, 2008, 12:49 PM
> 7ὁ γὰρ ἀποθανὼν δεδικαίωται
> ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας.
> 7The first enthymeme ends with a gnomic saying about the
> status of one who has died through co-crucifixion with
> Christ. The formulation of ὁ ἀποθανών(“he who
> died”) is again generic and refers to everyone who has
> died.147 It is possible that Paul has adapted an
> early version of rabbinic sayings such as “when a man is
> dead he is freed from fulfilling the law”148 
> __________
> 147 In contrast, Conleth Kearns, “The Interpretation of
> Romans 6, 7, ” SPCIC1 (1963) 303–7, suggests that
> “the one who died” is Christ, but this decontextualizes
> v. 7* and results in the odd notion that the process
> of making righteous pertains to Christ rather than to
> believers.
> 148 Str-B, 3.232, citing b.Šabb.151b
> Baraita; a citation is proposed by Karl Georg Kuhn, “Röm
> 6, 7: ὁ γὰρ ἀποθανὼν δεδικαίωται
> ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας,” ZNW30 (1931)
> 305–10, but decisively criticized by Cranfield,
> 1:310–11.
> Jewett, R., Kotansky, R. D., & Epp, E. J. (2006).
> Romans : A commentary. Hermeneia--a critical and historical
> commentary on the Bible (404). Minneapolis: Fortress Press.
> It would appear that the dative is simply a dative of
> respect as is indicated by Paul's further statement
> Ἢ ἀγνοεῖτε, ἀδελφοί,
> γινώσκουσιν γὰρ νόμον λαλῶ,
> ὅτι ὁ νόμος κυριεύει τοῦ
> ἀνθρώπου ἐφʼ ὅσον χρόνον ζῇ; 
> H AGNOEITE, ADELFOI, GINWSKOUSIN GAR NOMON LALW, hOTI hO
> NOMOS KURIEUEI TOU ANQRWPOU EP' hOSON XRONON ZHi?
>  george
> gfsomsel
> 
> 
> … search for truth, hear truth, 
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
> defend the truth till death.
> 
> 
> - Jan Hus
> _________
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 4:35:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Sat, 5/17/08, John Wilking
> <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: RE: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > To: "Webb Mealy" <webb at selftest.net>
> > Date: Saturday, May 17, 2008, 4:32 PM
> > I think the "absurdity" may be hiding the
> fact
> > that each of the phrases don't make sense in
> English:
> > "dead to sin" and "alive to
> God".  We
> > don't say "dead to rebellion" or
> "alive
> > to my wife".  This isn't primarily a
> translation
> > question, but simply that we notice that "we died
> to
> > sin"  isn't even a possibility, and then ask
> why. 
> > Should we alter the verb sense?  Or should we
> consider the
> > possibility that it is figurative language (another
> way of
> > altering the meaning, but of the entire structure)?
> > 
> > So, I assume by the silence that there are no examples
> in
> > which this structure is seen with other similar nouns,
> > e.g., "dead to patronage" or "alive to
> the
> > Emperor".  (I ran it by a friend who teaches
> Hebrew,
> > and at first glance he was unaware of it occuring in
> that
> > language.)
> > 
> > This led me to ask you if there is a theory of
> metaphor
> > that is currently in use, one that would help us in
> > detecting a metaphor when we might otherwise miss
> it.  I
> > spent a good amount of time years ago working on a
> theory
> > of metonym in NT Greek and came away with something of
> a
> > working model, but that doesn't help here.
> > 
> > Sorry if such elaboration is a waste of time when the
> > question and your silence were both clear enough.
> > 
> > John C. Wilking 
> > 
>> > 
> > 
> > --- On Fri, 5/16/08, Webb Mealy
> <webb at selftest.net>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Webb Mealy <webb at selftest.net>
> > > Subject: RE: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > > To: jcwilking at yahoo.com
> > > Cc: "'Biblical Greek'"
> > <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Date: Friday, May 16, 2008, 6:25 PM
> > > I suppose you get the clue if taking the words in
> > their
> > > ordinary meanings
> > > results in absurdity. Paul says "we have
> > died",
> > > yet he is alive and he is
> > > addressing living people. So "we have
> died"
> > has
> > > to be understood as a figure
> > > of speech. But that is only step one in trying to
> > figure
> > > out what is going
> > > on.
> > > 
> > > Webb Mealy
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of
> > > John Wilking
> > > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 2:59 PM
> > > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > > 
> > > Concerning the previous post, on a broader scale,
> how
> > do we
> > > know if a phrase
> > > is metaphorical?  
> > > 
> > > John C. Wilking
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- On Wed, 5/14/08, John Wilking
> > > <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > From: John Wilking
> <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: APEQANOMEN THi
> > > > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Date: Wednesday, May 14, 2008, 5:30 PM
> > > > I haven't found any discussion of
> APEQANOMEN
> > THi
> > > as a
> > > > possible metaphor in Romans 6:2, APEQANOMEN
> THi
> > > hAMARTIAi.
> > > > 
> > > > John C. Wilking
> > > 
> > > 
> > >      
> > > ---
> > > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > > B-Greek mailing list
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> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
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> 
>       
> ---
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> 
> 7 hO GAR APOQANWN DEDIKAIWTAI APO THS hAMARTIAS
> 10ὃ γὰρ ἀπέθανεν, τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ
> ἀπέθανεν ἐφάπαξ·ὃ δὲ ζῇ, ζῇ
> τῷ θεῷ. 
> 10 hO GAR APEQANEN, THi hAMARTIAi APEQANEN EFAPAC; hO DE
> ZHi, ZHi TWi QEWi. 


      



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