[B-Greek] DESIST: John 3:25

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Sep 28 13:56:34 EDT 2007


Could we call a halt to this, please? So far as I can see, the  
question under consideration does not really hang upon the Greek text  
but upon disagreement over the meaning of a text that is understood  
clearly enough in Greek and in translation. Please take it off-list.

Carl W. Conrad
Co-Chair, B-Greek List

On Sep 28, 2007, at 1:37 PM, reznik1 at juno.com wrote:

> Dear Bryant,
> Thank you for your contribution.
> Here is what I am questioning (ZHTEW :)  ):
> "Thus, the text can only be taken one way at this point. It is not  
> the way you suggested."
> Why not? In my version, the discussion is also about baptism  
> (purification). You say:
> "The Jew is questioning John's disciples since both Jesus' and  
> John's disciples were baptizing". But if we accept the traditional  
> understanding, the text doesn't say anything what the problem about  
> purification was with that "Jew". What did they disagree upon? The  
> very phrase becomes meaningless. You can say that the Jew  
> questioned John's right to baptise, but that would be no more than  
> a guess, plus it had already been discussed in chapter 1.
> In my version, if the dispute was between Jesus' and John's  
> disciples, it makes sense what they were arguing about concerning  
> purification, because we see in the following verses that John's  
> disciples became jealous.
> What do you think?
> Also, because nobody questioned my translation from grammatical  
> perspective, should I understand that it had no grammatical errors?
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Reznik
>
> -- "Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw at com-pair.net> wrote:
> Dear Dmitriy,
>
> Let's look at the context since it seems that will be the place  
> that will most
> likely answer your question.
>
> John 3:22-26:
> 22  μετα ταυτα ηλθεν ο ιησους και οι  
> μαθηται αυτου εις την ιουδαιαν γην  
> και εκει
> διετριβεν μετ αυτων και εβαπτιζεν
> 23  ην δε και ιωαννης βαπτιζων εν  
> αινων εγγυς του σαλειμ οτι υδατα  
> πολλα ην εκει
> και παρεγινοντο και εβαπτιζοντο
> 24  ουπω γαρ ην βεβλημενος εις την  
> φυλακην ιωαννης
> 25  εγενετο ουν ζητησις εκ των μαθητων  
> ιωαννου μετα ιουδαιου περι καθαρισμου
> 26  και ηλθον προς τον ιωαννην και  
> ειπον αυτω ραββει ος ην μετα σου  
> περαν του
> ιορδανου ω συ μεμαρτυρηκας ιδε ουτος  
> βαπτιζει και παντες ερχονται προς  
> αυτον
>
>
> Tischendorf, Constantin von: Tischendorf's Greek New Testament Bd.  
> 3 vol..
> electronic ed. of the 8th ed. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems,  
> 1997,
> c1869-1894, S. Jn 3:22-26
>
> 22    META TAUTA HLQEN hQ IHSOUS KAI OI MAQHTAI AUTOU EIS THN  
> IOUDAIAN GHN KAI
> EKEI DIETRIBEN MET' AUTWN KAI ENBAPTIZEN
> 23    HN DE KAI IWANNHS BAPTIZWN EN AINWN EGGUS TOU SALEIM hOTI  
> hUDATA POLLA HN
> KEKI KAI PAREGINONTO KAI ENBAPTIZONTO
> 24    OUPW GAR HN BEBLHMENOS EIS THN FULAKHN IWANNS
> 25    EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU META IOUDAIOU PERI  
> KAQARISMOU
> 26    KAI HLQON PROS TON IWANNHN KAI EIPON AUTWi RABBI OS HN META  
> SOU PERAN TOU
> IORDANOU W SU MEMARTURHKAS IDE OUTOS BAPTIZEI KAI PANTES ERXONTAI  
> PROS AUTON
>
> 3:25    Then a dispute arose between the disciples of John with a  
> Jew (Judean)
> concerning about Purification.
>
> You will notice that BAPTIZEIN is found 4x in verses 22-26. You  
> will also notice
> that the text states that Jesus and his disciples and John and his  
> disciples are
> baptizing. It is in then followed by the statement by John (the  
> apostle) that
> there was a disagreement/dispute between John's disciples and a Jew  
> about
> purifying. This is followed by a question to and remark by John the  
> Baptist in
> 26-27.
>
> The whole issue is about purification because of the use of  
> BAPTIZEIN and
> KAQARISMOU. The Jew is questioning John's disciples since both  
> Jesus' and John's
> disciples were baptizing (echoing the question of the priests and  
> Levites in
> John 1:25-28). This implies that the Jew is either a priest or  
> Levite who is
> also a Pharisee or Sadducee. Since the Pharisees where the group  
> that was more
> concerned about ritual purity, I take the Jew to be a Pharisee. In  
> fact,
> IOUDAIOU could be taken to mean NOT a Jew, but a Judean since THN  
> IOUDAIAN is
> the location where Jesus and His disciples and that the IOUDAIOU  
> came to Aenon
> and Salem where John and his disciples are baptizing to aske about  
> the Jesus and
> His disciples baptizing. Thus, the text can only be taken one way  
> at this point.
> It is not the way you suggested.
> ZHTHSIS has META of the person(s) of the dispute and PERI of the  
> issue the
> dispute is about; see also Acts 15:2, 7, 25:20; I Tim 6:4; II Tim  
> 2:23; Tit 3:9.
>
> En Xristwi,
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III





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