[B-Greek] John 3:25

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Sep 28 11:55:07 EDT 2007


OK, one more time.  I'm not sure what it is about the word "NO" that you don't understand, but here is another example.  This time it is not the noun ZHTHSIS but the verb ZHTEW which is used.  In Jn 16.19 it says 

Ἔγνω [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤθελον αὐτὸν ἐρωτᾶν, καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· περὶ τούτου ζητεῖτε μετʼ ἀλλήλων ὅτι εἶπον· μικρὸν καὶ οὐ θεωρεῖτέ με, καὶ πάλιν μικρὸν καὶ ὄψεσθέ με; 

EGNW [hO] IHSOUS hOTI HQELON AUTON ERWTAN, KAI EIPEN AUTOIS, "PERI TOUTOU ZHTEITE MET' ALLHLWN hOTI EIPON 'MIKRON KAI OU QEWREITE ME", KAI PALIN 'MIKRON KAI OYESQE ME'?"

Note that here we also have ZHTEW … META.  Here the disciples were arguing this among themselves (ALLHLWN) whereas in Jn 3.25 the ZHTHSIS was META IOUDAIOU.

In Hermas Sim. ii.1 it says

Περιπατοῦντός μου εἰς τὸν ἀγρὸν καὶ κατανοοῦντος πτελέαν καὶ ἄμπελον, καὶ διακρίνοντος περὶ αὐτῶν καὶ τῶν καρπῶν αὐτῶν, φανεροῦταί μοι ὁ ποιμὴν καὶ λέγει· Τί σὺ ἐν ἐαυτῳ ζητεῖς; Περὶ τῆς πτελέας καὶ τῆς ἀμπέλου συζητῶ, φημί, [κύριε,]  ὅτι εὐπρεπέσταταί εἰσιν ἀλλήλαις. 

PERIPATOUNTOS MOU EIS TON AGRON KAI KATANOOUNTO PTELEAN KAI AMPELON, KAI DIAKRINONTOS PERI AUTWN KAI TWN KARPWN AUTWN, FANEROUNTAI MOI hO POIMHN KAI LEGEI, "TI SU EN hEAUTWi ZHTEIS?"  "PERI THS PTELEAS KAI THS AMPELOU SUZHTW," FHMI, [KURIE,] hOTI EUPREPESTATAI EISIN ALLHLAIS.

Lightfoot, J. B., & Harmer, J. R. (1891). The Apostolic Fathers. Includes index. (343). London: Macmillan and Co.

Note that here we don't have an indication of another person involved in the ZHTHSIS [The verb ZHTEW is used], but the process is EN hEAUTWi.  The matter of the internal process is indicated by PERI.

 
george
gfsomsel
 
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.
 
- Jan Hus
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: "reznik1 at juno.com" <reznik1 at juno.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 9:23:11 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:25


I already understand your opinion. What is perfectly clear for you, may be not that clear for somebody else. I don't like statements like "the Bible clearly teaches...", as well as any dogmatism. What I am actually interested in is not theology or different interpretations, but whether this text can be read as I suggested from the Greek grammar point of view. So far, I did not receive any answer. 
Sincerely,
Dmitriy Reznik

-- George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:

No, it's not a disciple of John who is a Judaean (as opposed to a Galilean or a Hellenist).  "The Jews" in John's gospel usually refers to the leaders such as the Pharisees.  It is a dispute between some of John's disciples and a Judaean concerning purification.  Jesus only becomes involved in the matter when the purification controversy spills over into John's relationship with Jesus by having baptised him.  This gives the author the occasion for stating that John considered himself to be simply one who prepared the way for "the bridergroom."  I think I have made this perfectly clear so this will be the last I post on the matter. 
george
gfsomsel  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death. - Jan Hus
_________ 

----- Original Message ----
From: "reznik1 at juno.com" <reznik1 at juno.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:16:13 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:25

Dear George,
Thank you for your answer. In the understanding (or misunderstanding :) ) I am suggesting it is clear with whom the dispute occurs: with one (on several in other MSS) Judean disciple of John. And from the context we see that it would be Jesus or rather His disciples that would have the dispute with that disciple of John. I would like to copy here my answer to a private email I received from one of the members of this list. I hope that would explain, why I am "trying to make it more difficult than it needs to be".
Dear Webb,
Thank you for your answer. The reason I started this research was not just the presence of OUN, but the very fact that it is hard to see the connection of the phrase in its traditional reading with the context. In that case, it would be mentioned that there was some disagreement between John's disciples and "a Jew", but nothing said about that disagreement, making us read into it any explanation we want. Thus the phrase has not much meaning. But if the phrase meant what I suggested, then the disagreement would be rather between Jesus' disciples and a John disciple, and that would perfectly match the jealousy of the disciples of John we read about in the following verses. You said, "John's disciples were all Jews. It seems peculiar for John the evangelist to refer to one of John's disciples as "a Jew". Yes, but we could say the same about any situation John mentions "Jews" as opponents of Jesus and His disciples, though those were also Jews. I believe
 that in most cases "Jews" of John mean "Judeans" (in contrast to Galileans), which would also understood in our context, which mentions that Jesus just came to the land of Judea. 
Sincerely, 
Dmitriy Reznik

-- George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:

It isn't a common construction for ZHTHSIS to be found in proximity with META so it is difficult to give concrete examples.  Consider, however, Mk 8.11 Καὶ ἐξῆλθον οἱ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ ἤρξαντο συζητεῖν αὐτῷ, *** ζητοῦντες παρʼ αὐτοῦ σημεῖον *** ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, πειράζοντες αὐτόν.  KAI ECHQON hOI FARISAIOI KAI HRCANTO SUZHTEIN AUTWi, *** ZHTOUNTES PAR' AUTOU *** SHMEION … Here we have a different preposition which therefore changes the significance, but note what PARA contributes to it.  It signifies the source from whom they are seeking the sign.  But META carries the concept of accompaniment so we have a seeking or a dispute WITH someone.  When there is a dispute, there must be someone with whom a dispute occurs or a subject concerning which it occurs.  That which the dispute revolves around in Jn 3.25 is indicated by PERI.  It is the other
 party to the dispute which is designated by META.  To construe JOUDAIOU with TWN MAQHTWN would seem to scramble the sentence so as to make it virtually unintelligible.  I think you are simply trying to make it more difficult than it needs to be. 
george
gfsomsel  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death. - Jan Hus
_________ 

----- Original Message ----
From: "reznik1 at juno.com" <reznik1 at juno.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:47:03 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:25

-- George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought perhaps you had mis-spoken when you mentioned Jesus as being involved in this dispute.  It doesn't speak of a dispute of Jesus with either the disciples of John or with the Jews at this point.  The dispute was between the disciples of John and the Jews and concerned purification according to the text.  Perhaps someone might wish to read something more into it, but here we are concerned only with the text.
george
gfsomsel  I suspect that I was not clear enough again. Let me try to simplify my question. Can the phrase be understood as "There was a disagreement with a Jew [who was] from the disciples of John", as if the verse read "EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS META IOUDAIOU EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU ..."? In other words, can 
EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU META IOUDAIOU PERI KAQARISMOUbe equal to EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS META IOUDAIOU EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU PERI KAQARISMOU? Sincerely,Dmitriy Reznik
----- Original Message ----
From: "reznik1 at juno.com" <reznik1 at juno.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:49:57 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:25

Dear George,
Thank you very much for your answer.

-- George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote: 
EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU META IOUDAIOU PERI KAQARISMOU There is actually no "of some" missing here.  The idea is included in the EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU.  Here the genitive with [EK] is what is known a a partitive genitive signifying that it involves a part of the whole.   I understand that. Doesn't "part of the whole" in this case mean that only part, or some of the disciples of John where involved? I also think that we would be weakening the meaning here if we were to ony understand this as a "discussion."  It was a disagreement, a dispute.
I agree with you. But in this case I am not concerned with the right translation of this word. Can you say something about my suggestion to translate the phrase as ""There was a disagreement [of Jesus mentioned in previous verses] with a Jew [who was] from the disciples of John", as if the verse read "EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS META IOUDAIOU EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU ..."? Because otherwise it is not clear what was the discussion about, and what it has to do with the context.

Thanks in advance,
Dmitriy Reznik

----- Original Message ----
From: "reznik1 at juno.com" <reznik1 at juno.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 4:26:18 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] John 3:25

Dear scholars,
I have a question concerning John 3:25:
EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU META IOUDAIOU...
I guess usually it is understood as "There was a duscussion [between some] of the disciples of John and a Jew..."
In this case we assume that the phrase implies the missing "of some". Is there any possibility to read it as "There was a discussion [of Jesus mentioned in previous verses] with a Jew [who was] from the disciples of John", as if the verse read "EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS META IOUDAIOU EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU ..."? Because otherwise it is not clear what was the discussion about, and what it has to do with the context.

Thanks in advance,
Dmitriy Reznik

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